Whats stopping you from keeping cholov&nbsp;yisroel?

-06002007-07-11T20:26:41-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:26:41 -0600 5, 206

It aint just Detroit that it costs so much more its pretty much everywhere. It also spoils much faster. Do you think they charge so much for CY on purpose- like to segregate the population or something. Maybe they want to feel elite or something- even though the CY products suck.

I always wonder why the CY people dont try to get the GOOD products under the hechsher so we lowly cholov stam folks can begin to think about CY.

Reply

Brooklyn NY

-06002007-07-11T20:26:41-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:26:41 -0600 5, 206

Dunkin Doughnuts!!!!! OOO yes!!! Yummy!!!

Reply

-06002007-07-11T20:29:54-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:29:54 -0600 5, 206

Don’t they have CY dunkin donuts in NY?

I should have said what is the ONE item that you could not live without if, say, someone reversed Rav Moshe’s teshuva on CY in the 20th century.

Reply

-06002007-07-11T21:10:12-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:10:12 -0600 5, 206

what stops me?

like Sephardi Lady, i say cost and quality. of course she says it more delicately than i would.

regarding why CY milk spoils quicker. i always assumed it was because of the plastic containers, though i don’t really know if this has an effect. i do, however, have it on good authority that CY manufacturers put unrealistic expiration dates on the bottles. so it’s not necessarily that is spoils quicker. just that it stays on the shelf longer than it should.

i love how in brooklyn people treat non-CY products as if they are treyf. see the entry for Original Brooklyn Bagel in my post on kosher dining experiences at
http://agmk.blogspot.com/2007/07/kosher-restaurant-experiences.html#links
http://agmk.blogspot.com/2007/07/kosher-restaurant-experiences.html#links

Reply

Anonymous

-06002007-07-11T21:10:59-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:10:59 -0600 5, 206

It doesn’t inherently spoil faster. Part of the supply route to most places in the country involves a short truck ride in non-refridgerated trucks. That takes a big bite out of the shlf life Who owns the dairy or who is watching the milking process has no impact on shelf life, obviously.

Reply

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)

-06002007-07-11T21:54:02-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:54:02 -0600 5, 206

what keeps me from keeping so-called CY is the fact that minhag America, as re-stated and officially justified by R’ Moshe Feinstein, defines חלב הקאמפאניעס as חלב ישראל itself.

Reply

mazeartist

-06002007-07-11T21:57:37-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 11 Jul 2007 21:57:37 -0600 5, 206

Starbucks keeps me from keeping cholov yisroel.

Ask your parents about Ben & Jerry’s vs. Haagen Dazs in the political sense. The latter company supported right-wing Jewish causes, while the the former leaned towards liberal issues. Ben and Jerry both consider the Golan illegally occupied. In contrast Mr. and Mrs. Mattus supported the JDL and ZOA!

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=13380

For me, a food brand isn’t just about kashrut, its also about social responsibility (no relation to the Conservative tzedek hechsher)

Reply

-06002007-07-11T22:20:37-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 11 Jul 2007 22:20:37 -0600 5, 206

STEG:

i have not see rav moshe’s teshuvah since h.s., but iirc what you refer to as minhag america for CY was justified by him, but not preferred. he wrote that he personally used only CY and he urged ba’ale nefesh (whatever that means?) to do so also.

(this was in r. kramer’s halakhah class. funny, i just recalled something from h.s. by onthemainline [from r. kroman]. i think these are the only 2 things i remember from those 4 years, which i basically slept through.)

anyway, i think you will find many people who reject this as “minhag america.” there is a kosher grocery around the corner from me and all he sells is CY milk.

(re. minhag america, i hope to have a short post soon on liturgical minhag america.)

Reply

Rafi G

-06002007-07-12T00:49:35-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:49:35 -0600 5, 206

I eat chalav yisrael. When I got married I accepted upon myself to eat only cy. On the other hand it is fairly easy for me as I live in Israel and almost everything is cy. the thing is, I cannot eat imported stuff. Also much of the better chocolates or ice creams and stuff often has chalav stam powder or something like tha, so I cant eat that. But I do not feel I am missing anything.

The only problem is when visiting in the US, as I will be soon. The non-cy ice creams are so much better than cy….

Reply

moshe

-06002007-07-12T02:29:04-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 02:29:04 -0600 5, 206

CS is a racket ill put up with kashrus not CS

and honestly do u really think cs brings you closer to g-d?

Reply

-06002007-07-12T05:04:29-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 05:04:29 -0600 5, 206

Mazeartist:
Everyone knows that Ben and Jerry are two hippies from Burlington Vermont. The thing is I doubt people will consider the political causes behind ice cream. I think driving ford cars would be much worse then eating liberal oriented ice cream. Who said I was not a liberal anyway?

Reply

Warren

-06002007-07-12T06:56:57-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:56:57 -0600 5, 206

Your question assumes there is a problem not to keep CY or need, reason, etc. to keep it. It’s a “When did you stop beating your wife” question.

Reply

-06002007-07-12T07:22:22-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:22:22 -0600 5, 206

I could probably live in a world without Dark Chocolate Coated Vanilla Haagen Dasz Bars. What I can’t abide is the soaring costs of cholov yisroel products because there is a “captive audience”.
I also have a problem with being told that the minhagim of our forefathers and the way they did things, is no longer acceptable.
Frumkeit should not be about constantly looking for more restrictions, more foods that have to be washed and/or kashered to the death.

Reply

frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel

-06002007-07-12T07:50:51-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 07:50:51 -0600 5, 206

Ari G, thanks for answering Steg, I was going to get to that but you have taken care of business for me.

Moshe, I assume when you said:

“CS is a racket ill put up with kashrus not CS

and honestly do u really think cs brings you closer to g-d?”

that you meant CY. If I’m wrong here, sorry. But if I am correct, lets put it as follows:

According to Rav Moshe F., CY is the way to go. You can do otherwise, but if you’re shtark, you’ll keep CY.

(That was phrased poorly. I don’t have the attention span at the moment to do a better job, so bear with me.)

When you love someone (or Someone) you want to give them what they what they want/need. And when you provide that, you build the relationship between you. (Especially if its a sacrifice on your part, then it means even more because you are putting their desires above yours.) According to Rav Moshe, this is on the want list for G-d. So if you keep CY, you are building your relationship with Hashem, thus getting closer to HKBH. Which is what we’re here for, right? To have the greatest pleasure that there is, which is being tight with Hashem. Rock on!

Oh, and what keeps me from keeping CY is that my Rav told me I shouldn’t since I’m single, and if my husband won’t do it, I shouldn’t have to take a step back. And I shouldn’t limit myself man-wise, since my standards are high enough already :o).

Frumhiker, no need to…whatever. You handled things fine the second time around. Now if only we could have this conversation in a forum where the subject might not come across things…LOL. (Subtle much?)

Reply

Lactard

-06002007-07-12T08:26:32-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:26:32 -0600 5, 206

For myself in particular, and lots of ashkenazis, a big issue is lactose intolerance. There is no cholov yisroel milk that I know of that is 100% lactose free. The other thing for me is being on the road a lot and not always having access to an abundance of kosher food and having to rely on supermarkets where OU-D is plentiful.

Reply

frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel

-06002007-07-12T08:31:52-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:31:52 -0600 5, 206

You know…I was JUST wondering about the Lactaid thing…that is so interesting. Is there no CY Lactaid equivalent? What about in Israel? What do people do there?

Reply

frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel

-06002007-07-12T08:33:47-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:33:47 -0600 5, 206

Lactard, darling, why not just stick with parve stuff, if that’s your issue? I am not pointing fingers, if you want your big spread of food, thats fine, but then it becomes a convenience issue. I guess you’re not uber-lactose intolerant or the OU-D would be out too?

Reply

Aliza

-06002007-07-12T08:37:27-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:37:27 -0600 5, 206

Chalav Yisrael isn’t halacha, right?

I don’t follow it cuz I still live at home with my non-frum parents, and they buy my food. Why would I make them buy halav Yisrael for me, if they can just as easily buy me regular food? I wouldn’t do that to them.

Also, I can deal with basic halacha, but why should I follow chumras? I’m frum, I do what I’m supposed to, why do the extra if I’m not asked to? Sure, it’s a nice gesture, but I don’t feel the need to do it…

Reply

Nigel Ian III

-06002007-07-12T09:35:34-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:35:34 -0600 5, 206

http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2007/07/cholov-stam-cholov-akum-cholov-treife.html

RE: Cholov Stam-Cholov Akum
* From the step by step procedure manual for DA’s.
Perforate the abdominal wall and the abomasum with a swift downward
push of the trocar.
Use the push rod to move the toggle COMPLETELY through the length of the needle so that it will turn perpendicular to the long axis of the needle once in the abomasal lumen.
9. Before removing the trocar needle from the second suture site, place pressure on the external abdominal wall to force as much free gas from the abomasum as possible. This will reduce the tension on the sutures and help to reduce the chance of tearing the abomasal wall or leaking abomasal contents into the peritoneal cavity.
* * * * * * *
There are numerous veterinarian procedures that make a milking cow a “Treife”. The procedures include what is commonly known as “DA”‘s, “C” section, Bloating etc. All of the Major Poiskim in the USA & Eretz Yisroel including Rav S. Eliyashev, Shlita ruled that it is a “treife” & the milk may not be consumed.
In the Cholov-Yisroel farms, the contracted system is to remove them from the herd & be compensated for the loss. On the other hand by the Cholov Stam-Cholov Akum farms there is no system in place to have them removed.
Any milk product produced from a “treife” is to be considered “non-kosher” & may not be used.
*
There was a mistaken assumption that the major kosher certifiers were relying on an *unfinished “teshuva” from Rav Y. Belsky, Shlita. * The unfinished Teshuva was writteen some 11 years ago.
There were many Factual & Halachik issues with the unfinished Teshuva. Rav Belsky ended the teshuva with a “Hem’shech-yo’voi” (to be continued), to attempt to rectify the factual & Halachik dificulties.
Rabbi Belsky recently decided that there is nothing more to add to the Teshuva not factual & not Halachikly. The kosher certifiers & the consumers can’t rely on an unfinished teshuva “that is never going to be completed”. (especially when there are still unresolved serious factual & Halachik assumptions ). In retrospect “how did any one ever rely on an unfinished teshuvah”??
So we remain with the Psak of all of the Major Poiskim “all of the CHOLOV STAM & CHOLOV AKUMUM is “ossur” and not permitted to be used”.
What is a DA?
I. Left Displaced Abomasum and Its TreatmentThe primary cause of the problem requiring surgical intervention for its correction is apparently the diet provided dairy cows in order to increase the cows’ production of milk.
3 Housing cows in short stalls may be an aggravating factor since cows confined in such stalls may experience difficulty in rising to their feet. Struggling to rise may cause a malposition of an already dilated abomasum. The problem appears to be virtually non-existent in countries such as Australia and New Zealand where cattle are not normally fed grain but are simply allowed to graze in unconfined pastures.
4 The high carbohydrate diet provided in this country, or perhaps the accompanying reduction in consumption of grass, results in a high concentration of unabsorbed free fatty acids which decrease motility of the smooth muscle of the cow’s fourth stomach, the keivah or abomasum. As motility decreases, gas formation is increased by the liberation of carbon dioxide from the reaction between rumen bicarbonate and abomasal hydrochloric acid. As a result the abomasum becomes filled with gas. The abomasum normally lies to the right of the ventral midline along the abdominal wall. When distended by gas, the abomasum may become displaced and move to the left flank between the rumen and the body wall. As the distorted abomasum rises and moves out of place it may also become twisted at the point of connection of the abomasum to the intestine. In both its rising and twisting the abomasum behaves in a manner similar to a balloon filled with air. This twisting of the abomasum interferes with the free flow of the contents of the abomasum into the duodenum and the intestines. If the condition is not treated, the cow will stop eating and its milk production will decline drastically or it will suffer torsion displacement of the abomasum and die. Corrective treatment of this condition consists of anchoring the abomasum in its proper place.
Left displaced abomasum (LDA), as the condition is known, was first recognized in 1950. Since then the diagnosis has been made with increasing frequency. Professionals in the field report that it is their impression that surgical correction of LDA has become much more common in recent years.
5 It is thus not entirely surprising that rabbinic authorities remained unaware until recently of what has now become a relatively high incidence of surgical treatment to correct this condition that causes the animal to become a treifah. The incidence of LDA is the subject of a recent study by Dr. Steven Eicker of Cornell University’s New York State College of Veterinary Medicine in Ithaca, New York. His study of some 13,000 cows on 26 farms in New York State6 shows a variation between farms in the occurrence of left displaced abomasum of between five and fifteen percent.7 The mean for the farms surveyed is between seven and eight percent.
None of the farms surveyed showed a prevalence of less than five percent.8 “Shishim” is 1.67%

Reply

FRANK

-06002007-07-12T10:00:01-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:00:01 -0600 5, 206

i only consume milk from a cow that has been milked by a jew. just a guy with a beard on or near the premesis don’t do it for me

Reply

Adam

-06002007-07-12T10:12:06-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:12:06 -0600 5, 206

Oraganic, Raw (not pasteurized) Milk

Reply

jennthejewess

-06002007-07-12T10:58:26-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 10:58:26 -0600 5, 206

I just dont see why its necessary to keep CY…thats why I dont keep it…Also My father is extremely makpid on kashrus- he is very stringent and he doesnt keep CY so whats good for him is good for me.

Reply

frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel

-06002007-07-12T11:35:51-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:35:51 -0600 5, 206

Aliza, lots to say on the chumrah situation, if you care to hear what I have to say on the topic, bli neder I will post something on my blog in the near future.

In the meantime, or if you don’t care, I can tell you with almost complete certainty that 99.9% of rabbeim will tell you that you should NOT be keeping cholov yisroel in your current situation.

Jenn, no criticism meant to you or your father but never decide what you are going to do based on what others do. You know, bla bla, the difference between jews and Judaism, not to mention the (urban ledgend?) rubberband on rhe mayo jar. (If you don’t know what I’m talking about, feel free to ask.)

Reply

anonym00kie

-06002007-07-12T12:35:19-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:35:19 -0600 5, 206

Aliza – why do you say it’s not halacha? I dont know much about this topic, but i thougth it was halacha except that R’ Moshe Feinstein interpreted that it doesnt apply in america (which is why in Europe people who keep kosher only use CY and why many sfardim dont hold by his interprtation/leniency)
am i wrong?
anyone?

jennthejewess – why dont you see it as necessary?

frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel – what’s the mayo urban legend?

Reply

jennthejewess

-06002007-07-12T13:31:38-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:31:38 -0600 5, 206

I dont see it as necessary because I dont believe its more kosher…

Reply

-06002007-07-12T13:56:54-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:56:54 -0600 5, 206

Thank you Nigel Ian for that in depth analysis.

Does anyone know the halachic sources for cholov yisroel?

Reply

Brooklyn NY

-06002007-07-12T15:49:02-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:49:02 -0600 5, 206

Changing the subject….Dunkin Doughnuts is not cy is brooklyn. Some Dunkins have cy milk- but everything else is not cy.

Reply

Aliza

-06002007-07-12T16:36:59-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:36:59 -0600 5, 206

Anonymookie, I was honestly just assuming it wasn’t, because so many frum Jews don’t keep it. If it was halacha, wouldn’t people be keeping it?

I stil don’t think I would keep it when I have a home of my own…

Reply

southfloridajew

-06002007-07-12T17:13:49-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:13:49 -0600 5, 206

I’ve been frum for 8 years. First four years I didn’t keep cholov, and the last four years I have. I have not noticed any difference in my diet as there are lots of cholov products that you can buy if you have access to a kosher store. Its really not that hard, and its not that expensive. The regular milk is 1.69 for a half gal and the cholov is 2.89. No one is that poor, how much milk do you drink anyway?

Plus the cholov milk in many locals is super fresh because it comes from a close source. All of South Florida gets its milk from a farm in Orlando and it lasts about 2 weeks. I don’t remember regular milk lasting so long.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe said eating non cholov yisroel leads to “sefekos b’diveri emunnah”. Even if you don’t belive this, what’s to loose?

Reply

Miami Yami

-06002007-07-12T17:47:33-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:47:33 -0600 5, 206

I am always in Miami (south miami beach if you must know) and I buy both CY and CS milk. The CS milk is the Publix brand and it tastes much fresher and sweeter and lasts MUCH longer then the CY milk I get in Kosher World.

Reply

anotherfrumguy

-06002007-07-12T17:51:29-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:51:29 -0600 5, 206

which is why in Europe people who keep kosher only use CY

Many people do keep CY. Certainly a larger percentage than in America, but many CS products are certified by the London Beis Din including the Mars Companys candy bars.

A blanket statement that everyone does though is patently false.

Personally I keep mostly CY, but if I’m out and about I’m not above buying chocolates that are certified kosher, or Baskin-Robbins / Ben & Jerrys ice cream.

Reply

anonym00kie

-06002007-07-12T19:41:39-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 19:41:39 -0600 5, 206

anotherfrumguy,
i might be wrong, im not european but its what ive been told..
what i meant to say was that people in europe dont eat milk products that are not certified kosher (like we can in america) meaning they wont order milk for their coffee at a non kosher restaurant. am i wrong?
obviously if the milk is certified kosher (cy or not) then its fine..

Aliza,
the reason lots of frum poeple in american dont keep CY is cuz : “Nowadays, modern health standards (regulated by Health and Food standards organizations, such as the FDA) are intended to make sure that cow’s milk sold in stores is 100% cow’s milk. Therefore, many prominent Orthodox rabbinical authorities, all basing their subsequent decisions on the ruling of Rav Moshe Feinstein, permit the use of regular cows’ milk in the United States” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholov_Yisroel)

Reply

Ice cream lover

-06002007-07-12T20:13:03-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:13:03 -0600 5, 206

If what Nigel Ian III said was true, the OU and OK and CRC and KVH are all putting their symbol on stuff thats traif? How can it be? I guess Bryers, Hersheys and Baskin Robins are All traif? Because of the Gassy cow thing, that the poster named Nigel Ian III pointed out?? NO WAY!! Simple!! Its all about keeping Jewish money in the frum community!! Its all about the money!! I agree with a past post from this blog about kashrus that was posted a few weeks ago “Rabbis (sorry to say) dont tell people what is halacha and what is chumra – they subcribe to the “reverse judism effect” (everyone who came before you was a bigger tzaddik then ull ever be (including the people in easten europe whos sum knowledge of science was that of a US middle schooler)) therefore you MUST be more strict. The insane politics that go on behind the scenes is breathtaking On the whole things are turned upside down as alot of things in judism are ,,,,,,,

Reply

-06002007-07-12T20:49:33-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:49:33 -0600 5, 206

Ice Cream Lover stops just shy of a VERY interesting question.
Those people who believe that Cholov Stam is “treif” may very well be considered hypocritical if they abide by any of the hechsherim that permit CS products, even if they are parve.
How can they trust a certifying agency that doesn’t follow their beliefs?
I certainly hope those people only eat products with “heimishe” hasgochos…..

Reply

me

-06002007-07-12T23:26:26-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 12 Jul 2007 23:26:26 -0600 5, 206

I see everybodu is assuming it is a chumra. out of 40+ posts not 1 person has bothered cracking open a shulchan aruch? and BTY many people who drink only CY milk will consume products with milk powder (think mars-MK) a non cows milk cannot be powdered like cows.
And to say R’ Moshe, that’s fine with me if you live somewhere where CY is NOT available and you are a child who needs the milk and calcium. From the posts here, I see it is more for chocolate bars, ice screem etc. definitely not covered in tne tshuva.
Go read it before you decide, but don’t tell people who have the strength to follow shulchan aruch that they are keeping needlesx chumras.

Reply

moshe

-06002007-07-13T01:10:07-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 01:10:07 -0600 5, 206

me

most people dont know its from the SA most people do whats trendy or followed in their community

lol i remember back in grade school kids would sneak reeses peices and the like

in all honesty it is torah but of what need is there to dwell on it

do it or dont do it ur life should not revolve around dairy products

Reply

rebelwithacause

-06002007-07-13T05:27:08-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 05:27:08 -0600 5, 206

@frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel
There is no lactaid CY equivalent. Why not stick to parve stuff? Cause one’s body need nutrients and keeping kosher in a such a way that will harm your body does not make sense. G-d did not say “thou shall harm yourself doing the mitzwot”

@jennthejewess, I totally I agree with you (like always) 🙂

@mookie. It’s a gezeirah implemented by the Chazal. It was implemented during a time where there was probability of milk being mixed up with treif substances. You are misinformed about European people only eating and drinking CY. The Orthodox Rabbinut of Europe have this permission for those living on the mainland (not in England), , who do not have access to CY that they may drink and eat chalav akum which has been approved by the rabbis. Rabbi Tovia Hod publishes a yearly booklet which lists these products and he is available at all times for any questions. He is a kashrut expert.

me // Jul 12th 2007 at 9:20 p07
I see everybodu is assuming it is a chumra. out of 40+ posts not 1 person has bothered cracking open a shulchan aruch? and BTY many people who drink only CY milk will consume products with milk powder (think mars-MK) a non cows milk cannot be powdered like cows.
And to say R’ Moshe, that’s fine with me if you live somewhere where CY is NOT available and you are a child who needs the milk and calcium. From the posts here, I see it is more for chocolate bars, ice screem etc. definitely not covered in tne tshuva.
Go read it before you decide, but don’t tell people who have the strength to follow shulchan aruch that they are keeping needlesx chumras.

Here is what is mentioned in Shulhan Aruch:
Even if a gentile farmer has no non-kosher species of animals present when he milks his cows, his milk is nevertheless prohibited by this gezerah (rabbinic prohibition) unless there is Jewish supervision to assure that milk from non-kosher animals was not mixed in.

It says “Jewish” supervision, so OU supervision is good enough. It does not necessarily have to be CY. Unless you think OU rabbis are not Jewish enough.

Btw, I love the way you spelled ice cream. Ice scream, you scream, we scream? LOL

southfloridajew // Jul 12th 2007 at 9:20 p07
I’ve been frum for 8 years. First four years I didn’t keep cholov, and the last four years I have. I have not noticed any difference in my diet as there are lots of cholov products that you can buy if you have access to a kosher store. Its really not that hard, and its not that expensive. The regular milk is 1.69 for a half gal and the cholov is 2.89. No one is that poor, how much milk do you drink anyway?
Plus the cholov milk in many locals is super fresh because it comes from a close source. All of South Florida gets its milk from a farm in Orlando and it lasts about 2 weeks. I don’t remember regular milk lasting so long.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe said eating non cholov yisroel leads to “sefekos b’diveri emunnah”. Even if you don’t belive this, what’s to loose?

We don’t all belong to the Lubavitcher sect and the rebbe is not our rebbe. Lose is spelled with one o and the CY being sold until 2004 all over the US and Europe had considerable aluminium in it which causes aluminium poisioning and this causes many severe mental and bodily damage.
http://home.earthlink.net/~joannefstruve/_wsn/page3.html
Me and a frum doctor in Europe have written many letters and sent many emails asking rabbis them to ban this brand. I know two frum women who gave birth to children with autism, and their other children are having great problems learning. Why? Cause, the milk being sold as CY has damaged our children’s health. So please be frum but don’t be dumb.

Reply

rebelwithacause

-06002007-07-13T05:37:55-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 05:37:55 -0600 5, 206

It should say sold unti 2005.

Reply

anonym00kie

-06002007-07-13T06:59:32-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 06:59:32 -0600 5, 206

me,
some of us dont have a shulchan aruch to crack or have any clue how to.. maybe you could enlighten us.. if you read through the comments, i’m sure you noticed the questions of whether its a chumra and what the sources are did come up.. why dont you answer it…

and just for the record, being judgemental and critical isnt really conducive to bringing changes- if it’s not “fine with you”, try to help.

Reply

Anonymous

-06002007-07-13T07:16:26-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:16:26 -0600 5, 206

MOSHE:

“And to say R’ Moshe, that’s fine with me if you live somewhere where CY is NOT available”

after citing r. moshe above from memory i went to look him up. he says nothing of the sort that it depends on whether CY is available where you live. his heter is across the board with NO conditions (in America of course, and assuming government conditions retain the status quo).

also, for those above who write about trying it out or doing it before marriage, he warns that anyone who is aware of the mekil position yet adopts the humra, does so as if it is a neder and may not revert to non-CY.

-ari kinsberg

Reply

Nigel Ian III

-06002007-07-13T08:51:43-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:51:43 -0600 5, 206

For the record, i am NOT makpid on CY
The article i posted was ripped from Yudel Shain’s blog (a maverick rabbi in Lakewood who uses all his kochot to fight the “establishment” be it BMG, the kashrut industry, the old boys clubs etc.)
see the link i provided there
He goes into depth on how the kashrut industry bases its hechsher of CS on
a- R’ Moshe’s tshuva which he says because of the current situation is no longer applicable (alot of cows are teraifa (because of the gas thing) thereby making the milk chalav teraifa)
b- the “unfinshed tshuva of r’ belsky…..

Reply

frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel

-06002007-07-13T08:52:41-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:52:41 -0600 5, 206

Ari G, you get 2 thumbs up.

Happy shabbos everyone!

Reply

Nigel Ian III

-06002007-07-13T08:54:11-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:54:11 -0600 5, 206

ari- and a neder can be anulled

Reply

-06002007-07-13T09:26:13-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 09:26:13 -0600 5, 206

frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel:

thanks.

nigel ian iii:

when i was in israel the rosh yeshivah spoke to us about hatarat nedarim for kitniyot purposes. other than that, practically i don’t know of anyone (not that this means anything) who actually did hatarat nedarim for a minhag or a humra, including reverting from CY to CS.

or is this covered in hatarat nedarim yom kippur time?

Reply

Ice cream lover

-06002007-07-13T11:38:41-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:38:41 -0600 5, 206

Whats stopping me is the hypocrisy!!!

To the poster named ME. Im sorry I don’t carry a Shulchan Aurach in my pocket to review and post on blogs. My point is that the consumer is expecting the kashrus agencies to be the ones who adhere to Hallacha. In other words the OU has a huge panel of Rabbi’s who are expected to be knowledgeable enough to rely upon. If their was something wrong than they wouldn’t be giving their certification.
Again I’m quoting from a post on this blog a few weeks ago

“…. I think theres 2 points you overlooked to some degree . 1) The difference between actual halacha and the insane chumras that people have adopted 2) the backroom politics that cause people to “do things they normally wouldnt”.
1) 99% of the people who keep kosher dont know what is halacha, what is minhag, and what is chumra. The idea of kosher itself has changed in the past 50 yrs, and the idea that “the more chumras on kashrus you take, teh more frum you are”. As a child we all ate Wrigleys, Tootsie Roll ect – and there was nothing trief in it – no glycerin ect. One day the “word” came down from NYC that it was all trief, and that was the end. (Who’de believe that 3 musketeers can be kosher in Australia but not in the US?). Rabbis (sorry to say) dont tell people what is halacha and what is chumra – they subcribe to the “reverse judism effect” (everyone who came before you was a bigger tzaddik then ull ever be (including the people in easten europe whos sum knowledge of science was that of a US middle schooler)) therefore you MUST be more strict.
2) The insane politics that go on behind the scenes is breathtaking. Who here eats triangle K? most dont – but years ago people ate it when it was on doritos, entenmans and drakes – now 2 out of 3 are OU. I know the rabbi behind Triangle K (his family and mine were personal friends) – and while he may have been maykil he wasnt ignorant of halacha – yet no one ate it. How about Hebrew National? Yes theres an issue with meat washing, yet prominent rabbis would call the rabbi of Hebrew National and discuss halacha with them! Lets not even get into why Perdue never became Kosher.
On the whole things are turned upside down as alot of things in judism are ,,,,,,,
There is too much mafia style tactics in the kashrus biz, If anyone tried to go and make a goyish farm cy that could really compete for the kosher market place, you would see the folks like Kliens ice cream and New square, pride of the farm and J&J crying foul.
I also want to point out a few other things, the market is inundated with non CY Hamish cheese companies like Millers, and Migdal! There are even some new players like Monsey Dairy. Migdal is NOT cy but under KAJ. Their Rabbis know Halacha and the Shulchan aurech Come on who are we kidding?. There is also politics within I know a few Chabadnicks who wont except the Star-k pride of the farm cy line.

Reply

zev

-06002007-07-13T11:39:34-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:39:34 -0600 5, 206

It is forbidden to use milk milked by a non-Jew if it is possible that the milk of an unkosher animal was mixed with it (115:1). It is forbidden to eat cheese made by a non-Jew if it is possible that it was made with unkosher rennet (115:2). It is customary in some places not to eat butter made by a non-Jew (115:3), but mixtures containing such butter and utensils in which it was cooked are permitted (115:1).

Shulcan Aruch, Yoreh De’ah courtesy Torah.org

Reply

Ice cream lover

-06002007-07-13T12:42:53-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:42:53 -0600 5, 206

the consumer is expecting the kashrus agencies to be the ones who adhere to Hallacha. In other words the OU has a huge panel of Rabbi’s who are expected to be knowledgeable enough to rely upon. If their was something wrong than they wouldn’t be giving their certification.

Reply

shteig it!

-06002007-07-13T13:11:41-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:11:41 -0600 5, 206

i love this thread its so like torah discussiony

Reply

flatbush gal

-06002007-07-13T13:15:45-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:15:45 -0600 5, 206

one day i decided to see how long i could not eat cs without seeing something i really wanted. and when i came home i saw chips ahoy and i was like okay never mind. munch!

Reply

-06002007-07-13T13:28:23-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:28:23 -0600 5, 206

Ice Cream Lover –
In the interest of full disclosure, I am very sorry to say that Migdal is (only recently) no longer under KAJ hashgocho (it is now under the OK). KAJ no longer certifies non-CY products, but I will say that many within the organization are very saddened by this development.

Reply

Jacob the Tyrant

-06002007-07-13T14:22:08-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:22:08 -0600 5, 206

Since forever Jews only drank CY because that was the only kosher milk to be relyed on, as the Shulchan Orech says. For those who dont know how applicable R’ moshe’s heter was, R’ Reuven Feinsyein son of R’ moshe eats cholov stam. (all this reported by his grandson to my brother) and that story where R’ Moshe once accidentily drank CS and vomited it, R’ Reuven said its crap (not in those words obviously). So enjoy!

Reply

Jacob the Tyrant

-06002007-07-13T14:22:50-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:22:50 -0600 5, 206

Aruch*

Reply

Jacob the Tyrant

-06002007-07-13T14:26:53-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:26:53 -0600 5, 206

The person who does Hebrew National btw is mentally unstable, I know him

Reply

-06002007-07-13T14:41:23-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 14:41:23 -0600 5, 206

You know, there’s the old question as to why, when Moshiach comes, we will all be eating from the Leviasan. Why would Hakodosh Boruch Hu serve us just a fish??!?
A tongue-in-cheek answer was proposed that perhaps it is because all these people won’t trust Hashem’s hasgocho….

Reply

Ice cream lover

-06002007-07-13T16:19:52-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:19:52 -0600 5, 206

As for Hebrew National I am referring to the person before Triangle K took over. Rabbi T Stern. There are a lot of gray areas in yidishkite . Than there is the once you start doing something you gotta keep doing it even though the reason for is gone! The classic example is Checking eggs for blood spots. In commercial egg production today, No Eggs are fertilized or anywhere near a rooster. Do people still have to check? Most are candled to see. Most blood that slips by is from hormones. The OU considers the blood spots in Helmanns mayo to be butil. How about shabbos? Anyone here take pills on Shabbos? No one crushes with a mortar anymore? Clapping on Shabbos on the back of your hand as not to make music?? I could go on but I think Iv made myself clear? Im sure this blog has some place in a past post things of this nature.

Reply

-06002007-07-13T16:39:16-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:39:16 -0600 5, 206

Ice Cream Lover- please see this post which was a follow up to my listing of all the diff types of shomer negia.

Can you be frum if you do not keep negia? The follow up post

Reply

Sara No H

-06002007-07-13T20:27:15-06:00312007b-06:00Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:27:15 -0600 5, 206

Northern California. It’s hard enough keeping Kosher here, at all.

P.S. I tagged you on my blog.

Reply

Nigel Ian III

-06002007-07-15T10:22:19-06:00312007b-06:00Sun, 15 Jul 2007 10:22:19 -0600 5, 206

Ari K
Changing back from CY to CS or anything like that requires a real hatarat nedarim with competent rabbi’s the rosh hashana one doesnt suffice, its too general

Reply

-06002007-07-16T00:26:20-06:00312007b-06:00Mon, 16 Jul 2007 00:26:20 -0600 5, 206

nigel:

how many people who casually try it out and don’t stick it out will actually do hatarat nedarim? (can any of the commenters above tell us if they’ve done it?) perhaps this is why rav moshe was so careful to warn about the repercussions?

Reply

-06002007-07-16T06:56:39-06:00312007b-06:00Mon, 16 Jul 2007 06:56:39 -0600 5, 206

Yo I rock Hataras Nedarim every year man.

Reply

-06002007-07-16T07:10:15-06:00312007b-06:00Mon, 16 Jul 2007 07:10:15 -0600 5, 206

FRUM HIKER:

according to nigel, the annual formulaic hatarat nedarim is not sufficient to abrogate the neder one implicitly makes when accepting a new minhag. i would like to know if anyone who on a whim decides to try out CY and then reverts to CS actually does the appropriate hatarat nedarim

Reply

Natan

-06002007-07-16T23:23:53-06:00312007b-06:00Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:23:53 -0600 5, 206

Chalav Yisrael is Halacha, it’s not a Chumra.

Read R’ Moshe’s tshuva. He lays it out quite clearly. Because the US government inspects milk kosher milk is to be considered CY.

He does not give a heter for Chalav Stam.

Reply

moshe

-06002007-07-17T02:32:19-06:00312007b-06:00Tue, 17 Jul 2007 02:32:19 -0600 5, 206

i remember rabbi d’s thing

he was lactose intolerant so the few drops of milk he would pour into his coffee would be CS cuz it would be ez for him to keep it

i guess most people love dairy cant say i blame em

Reply

jana

-06002007-07-17T15:31:56-06:00312007b-06:00Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:31:56 -0600 5, 206

nigel ian III your thing about the treif cows scared me a lil… are we all really eating treif? but i love reese’s i hafta import them to this stupid backward country tho

Reply

Natan

-06002007-07-17T19:24:00-06:00312007b-06:00Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:24:00 -0600 5, 206

If you’re interested in the status of cows read this and the comments:

http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/11/is-milk-kosher.html

Reply

-06002007-07-17T20:46:14-06:00312007b-06:00Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:46:14 -0600 5, 206

Nathan:

“Read R’ Moshe’s tshuva. He lays it out quite clearly.”

correct.

Nathan: “He does not give a heter for Chalav Stam.”

Rav Moshe: “yesh ta’am gadol le-HATIR”

Nathan: “it’s not a Chumra”

Rav Moshe: “le-va’ale nefesh min hara’ui le-HACHMIR . . . ani noheg le-HACHMIR le-atzmi”

Reply

Natan

-06002007-07-18T08:41:43-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:41:43 -0600 5, 206

Thanks for clarifying R’ Moshe. My understanding of his position comes from learning it a while ago and discussions I’ve had on it since then.

What I meant by “It’s not a Chumrah” was this: This is not a Chumrah by the normal understanding of Chumrah. Chalav Yisrael is Halacha – we must keep CY.

R’ Moshe says that despite his heter (not for Chalav Stam – but to believe that American milk is CY) he his personally machmir. Not to keep CY at all, but to follow the laws of CY despite the fact that it’s unnecessary in the US.

I personally drink milk that holds by his tshuva, which means that I am drinking CY. According to my understanding of his tshuva, if you believe – as I do – that CY is mandatory then you must keep CY throughout the world. If you drink Kosher milk in the US you by definition are drinking CY.

Reply

Ice cream lover

-06002007-07-18T11:27:23-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:27:23 -0600 5, 206

How many things like this are in the life of a frum jew? Hesh start a new thred on the laws of Shabbos Id like to know who opens pop cans, opens 2 liter soda bottles, and tears open bags (For food with out tearing the writing) or who cuts cake with the words Happy birthday, As long as you cut between the letters? Im sure there will be like 65-70 posts quoting halacha, chumra, and what everyone does etc.. ? Its very entertaining. I love this blog? Do pillows need to be checked for shatnes? Are the Carpets in your house shatnes free??

Reply

-06002007-07-18T12:34:41-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:34:41 -0600 5, 206

I will think of something to post in the next few days about chumras. I have in the past- but I will think of a comic yet thought invoking post.

Reply

frumfunkyfabslightlyeidel

-06002007-07-18T16:22:42-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:22:42 -0600 5, 206

Aliza and Frumhiker and anyone else who cares, I just posted my thoughts on chumrahs. Happy reading.

Reply

yaeli

-06002007-07-25T20:40:58-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:40:58 -0600 5, 206

I just stumbled upon this blog and it’s great!
This is for everyone reading this who keeps chalav stam and is now thinking, “Oh shoot, now I need to keep CY! Rav Moshe says to!” But before coming to any conclusions, we have to look at a different teshuva of Rav Moshe’s (I can’t quote it off the top of my head, but if anyone wants I will gladly try and find it) which talks about the dairy companies in America at the time, which I believe was in the 60’s. He writes that most of the milk processed comes from large companies which are under government supervision; however, there are a few small farms still scattered around which are not. Therefore, Rav Moshe concludes that it’s OK to drink CS because the majority of it comes from the supervised farms. He says that a “Baal nefesh” should drink CY because a tiny amount of CS comes from unsupervised, and therefore possibly unkosher, farms. And……(drum roll)……nowadays, there aren’t any more unsupervised small farms! So CS is perfect! (And I hope no one kills me for this slightly contreversial post….)

Reply

-06002007-07-26T08:21:16-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 26 Jul 2007 08:21:16 -0600 5, 206

Slightly controversial is the whole point of the blog lady, thanks for the comment.

Reply

jennthejewess

-06002007-07-26T10:41:56-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:41:56 -0600 5, 206

if u think THAT is controversial hang out herre a bit more… ull see controversial

Reply

common sense

-06002007-08-02T01:45:44-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 02 Aug 2007 01:45:44 -0600 5, 206

sure ill keep cholov yisrael-when you shkutzim stop dipping your idol worshipping sheitels in bug infested new york water WHILE in a crowded wedding room of 800 people and finishing lakewood grown bug saturated strawberries that has the new york water slapped on top of that to create the ultimate nightmare-the superfrum bug, who, though weary of getting oogled by many self appointed rabbis, enjoys a good Slifkin book during his quiet hours, as well as the making of a godol. ’nuff said.

Reply