Please visit my new site at
http://frumsatire.net/
I was mountain biking today with Alon Krausz the founder of the JOC- Jewish Outdoors Club and in one of our conversations he told me about the SOU- shomer until opportunity- that of course spawned this post.
Many people I know keep negia, they brave the dark waters of celibacy and refrain from touching the opposite sex until marriage. They piss and moan about how they could be getting some and how much they miss their sex filled college days and so on. All of the sudden these same people are seen hugging women, sometimes kissing them on the cheek and I even get these random late night phone calls from supposedly shomer negia folks who just got some action. Based upon my experiences there are many sub-categories within the folks who claim to keep negia.
SUO- shomer until opportunity:
This crowd is very common I have noticed, these are the folks who are 100% shomer until they wind up at some after work party with some hottie hitting on them. The second the women show interest their once fervent stance on keeping negia is lost to the prospect of some steamy action. I think that many of these folks are the types that have hooked up with girls/guys in the past and know how good it can be. These SOU’s tend to not be the lifelong negia types. The folks who tend to be SOU’s are usually older singles, Modern Orthodox Machmir, flexidox and yeshiva rebels who frummed out in Israel- sorta.
Shomer N’fooling Around:
These folks are shomer when it comes to getting intimate, but when it comes to having folks sit next to them, put their arms around them or give them hugs they see no problem with this. Also in this crowd are those folks that think sleeping in the same bed with their “good friend” of the opposite sex- is no problem at all and they are just friends. The folks in this crowd tend to be from Modern Orthodox Liberal homes that brought them up in a very mixed yet protected lifestyle. Touching is not bad before marriage but intimacy is.
SUE- shomer until engaged:
I can definitely relate to this category, I was engaged after all and have come to the conclusion that unless you live in a community with separate sidewalks for men and women- you have probably experienced this sort of thing. I have spoken to many friends of mine many of whom are full time Kollel and Rebbe types who have confirmed my suspicions. Most of them deny getting all hot and steamy in the back seat of their blue and wood paneled Chevy wagons held with bungee cords, but they do admit to holding hands and hugging in dark corners of the top floor of the midtown Marriott. I guess if you were shomer until you got enaged you have to be higher then the MO-dox
SBD- Shomer by default:
If you could get some you probably would not be shomer, but since your too stupid to figure out how to use chat rooms, the casual encounter ads on craigslist and the poking mechanism on facebook you have resigned yourself to a life of free porn and staring at women over the mechitza. This category is filled up by nerdy and ugly folks who think they don’t have a chance in the world to get some action. Let me tell you something, anyone can get some if they tried just a little. These are the type of folks that never speak up when their friends are conversing with someone from the opposite sex and usually their friends are too rude to introduce them.
SCT- Shomer cock tease:
I know its hard to belive that this exists but it does. Some women just love to see men squirm and wonder how such beauty could be saved for some guy in the near future. These women tend to be future hot chanie and sheitle hooker types unless they already are. They prance around all hot and done up, yet they act like they are all frum by telling you they are shomer- almost spitting it in your face in fact.
SIP- Shomer in public:
They act shomer, but didn’t you just see them hug that person or give them one of those reassuring massages that is basically a come on without actually doing anything to frontal. I know plenty of these folks, they are with their girl/boy friends and they don’t touch, they even sit a little away from each other to act all frum and then boom- a casual look under the table will reveal all hell is going on under there. Footsie aint like it was when I was growing up.
ESN- extreme shomer negia:
I had this Rebbe in high school who would clear a line of people whenever him or his wife had to exit shull. These are the types that slam your change down on the counter rather them drop it in your hand. These types also avoid eye contact as if that would make them want to jump your bones and they try and act as rude as possible so you don’t try and do anything stupid. These folks tend to identify with the charedi movement and agree with the Saudis on many of their shomer negia policies besides the honor killing stuff. These people also tend to drink lots of mountain dew and ride skateboards for fear of walking on the same ground as the opposite sex.
SBHS- shomer besides hand shakes:
Classic modern orthodoxy and even some of the frummier types will shake a woman’s hand when the time calls for it. I don’t think there is anything wrong with it. As Tupac says in the song “you wonder why they call you bitch- business strictly business.”
SUD- shomer unless drunk:
I have a friend who would hook up with girls at parties when he got drunk. He would call me up and tell me he did something stupid and I knew exactly what it was, then he would learn some mussar and go about his business with that feeling of guilt they pound into you during yeshiva.
MSN- Militant Shomer Negia:
Does your town have one of those Vaad Hatznius organizations that believes in threatening people because they may not keep negia? Have you heard of guys/gals being beat up because they were seen talking to each other? Separate halls at weddings for the men and women since the Berlin Wall style mechitza’s are just not enough? When all else fails, the charedim take to the streets to protest some sort of event in which guys/gals may see each other. MSN folks are the type who would rather see intermarriage then have groups like NCSY and any other sort of coed programs. They also tend to believe in complete seperation unless its child conceiving time, basically the women slaves over the child rearing and food making while the man slaves over a gemara or diamond counter. Looking at the opposite sex is counted as breaking shomer negia.
SUH- shomer until horny:
These are my favorites, the folks who are hardcore shomer until they cant take the pressure anymore. I am sure many of you may feel the same way. In fact I was at the Homowack with my father a few years ago and I met two single girls in their upper 20s. We got into a conversation about being shomer negia and they revealed that besides holding hands they, like good bais yaakov girls had never touched a guy. They also revealed that they had made a pact, not unlike the one in the first American Pie, in which they had both agreed to go out and have sex if they weren’t married by 30, I said why wait? They haven’t contacted me as of yet. Since many bloggers happen to be single women I am curious if many of them feel this way. I also wonder about those frum older singles- are they similar to the 40 year old virgin movie?
Seen it
-06002007-06-12T23:28:27-06:00302007b-06:00Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:28:27 -0600 5, 206
Haha, this post is ridiculously true. I myself don’t even know which way is the correct way to act, but I went from a SIP to a SUE to a SBHS (that’s a story of it’s own). Life’s confusing sometimes.
rebelwithacause
-06002007-06-13T03:35:27-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 03:35:27 -0600 5, 206
As far as women are concerned, the honest answers will probably be posted as anonymous. The women who will post that they are 100% shomer might give their name, but I am pretty sure they are lying about their shomer status. Some women might comment on my comment by saying “oh we are not girls like that”. Those who say this are afraid of being labeled as whores who sleep around. I am pretty sure that most young frummies at the very least have kissed someone or fondled with them even if they did not sleep with them.
Everyone gets horny and it’s natural that men and women are attracted to each other.I don’t believe a frum guy if he tells me he has been shomer for 3 or 5 or 10 years. I don’t believe a frum girl either unless she is a FFB who has never seen a man in his underwear. Those who lie about their shomer status, I am not sure who they are fooling, cause it’s not hard to figure out who is shomer and who is not.
moshe
-06002007-06-13T03:38:11-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 03:38:11 -0600 5, 206
jewish girl i work with claims to be shomer
one day she comes in with a narsty cold sore on her lip
i wonder if she became shomer after the herpes??
rebelwithacause
-06002007-06-13T05:19:06-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:19:06 -0600 5, 206
moshe // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06
i wonder if she became shomer after the herpes??
LOOL Moshe!
eva
-06002007-06-13T05:57:34-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:57:34 -0600 5, 206
Great minds think alike- LOL- it’s becoming my
trade-mark saying. Check out my post “How
far will you go to be shomer?”
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T07:40:13-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:40:13 -0600 5, 206
I just thought of a new category during davening- militant shomer! It is being written right now.
A23
-06002007-06-13T08:16:42-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:16:42 -0600 5, 206
Excellent post.
Josh
-06002007-06-13T08:19:43-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:19:43 -0600 5, 206
One thing I noticed about shomer negeah people is that they tend to touch people of the same sex A LOT and fairly intimately. It really borders on PDA at times.
Aliza
-06002007-06-13T08:23:47-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:23:47 -0600 5, 206
Hmm, maybe I don’t know people well enough yet in the community I go to school, but as far as I know they’re all keeping Shomer Negia exactly the way they should be.
I, on the other hand, have been keeping it pretty well since I started becoming religious. Maybe that’s cuz I don’t hang out with guys anymore(I trty not to, but if the opportunity ame up I wouldn’t really be against it).
I didn’t even really do much before becoming religious, either. Farthest I ever went was a hug. How sad, eh?
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T08:24:11-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 08:24:11 -0600 5, 206
Hey Guys! Hesh…This is a great one…Im not sure what to even say because its all so true- it doesnt even need commenting. Imnot even sure what category i fall into but i will say many many more BY and BK type girls than anyone thinks are not shomer and many have had sex (most say they are “not sure”)- Its not so taboo any more
the syracuse renegade child
-06002007-06-13T09:38:00-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:38:00 -0600 5, 206
I luv this post…i think the one shomer you forgot is MSN after dark, in Atlantic city, Las Vegas, Ect….
for all those that dont know what Im talking about, the next time you find yourself at a strip club and turn to find a guy with a baseball hat with payot stuffed underneath siting next to you..tha MSN looking for a minyan for mincha in the wrong place!!!
yumma
-06002007-06-13T09:39:44-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:39:44 -0600 5, 206
Hesh:
Great list
I wish you had focused more on the UWS scene where literally everyone is sleeping around with everyone else, and yet an overwhelming number of those same people consider themselves Ortho.
Go to Parlour on Saturday night and check it out…
swfm
-06002007-06-13T09:53:17-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:53:17 -0600 5, 206
Thumbs up, great work! So true, just hysterical, LMTO!:)
MW
-06002007-06-13T10:07:35-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:07:35 -0600 5, 206
Its true how you cant tell who is shomer and who is not. There are plenty of fakers out there and I sometimes cant stand walking in the street. I am a full on shomer, and I know that is the right thing. But seriously, I get looks all the time and I would be sick to my stomach if I knew what these guys on the street are thinking. Its sad but they could look like a total frummy with the entire chasidish garb but they would be doing g-d knows what “after dark”! Dont be fooled by the way they dress or talk cuz their are plenty of fakers out there, and they could be doing the sickest things. I think that if you are not shomer then you shouldnt fake it, and dont go around town looking and acting like the frumest person out there but in reality you are the complete opposite!
Shiphra
-06002007-06-13T10:15:42-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:15:42 -0600 5, 206
Great post!
I would say… “Shomer N’fooling Around,” although I wouldn’t call it that. 😀 I dance ballroom competitively, but having feelings for your partner is almost taboo (unless, of course, s/he is your spouse). I’m also overly touchy-feely with gay guys, who are well-represented in the dance community.
anonym00kie
-06002007-06-13T10:17:15-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:17:15 -0600 5, 206
so im curious… if everyone is doing it, and everyone knows that everyone is doing it, and everyone is finding it less and less taboo to do it.. does that mean that everyone thinks its fine to be doing it? or is everyone doing it despite what they believe in?
it = not being shomer negya
everyone = very big generalization
Anonymous
-06002007-06-13T10:25:57-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:25:57 -0600 5, 206
SUIR. Shomer Until In Relationship. This is the guy/girl who’s been brought up that shomer negia is the proper way. In fact, they think everyone in the orthodox world is shomer negia. Not being shomer is for bums. They keep this up into their dating life – until they actually get in a relationship. The first time they go out with someone for more than 5 or 6 dates, it’s over. Shomer what?
anonym00kie
-06002007-06-13T10:38:16-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:38:16 -0600 5, 206
i have a question.. for those of you who agree with s.n., how do you hold yourself back when you read posts like these, when it sounds like no one else is keeping it? there’s strength in numbers, but when you feel like you’re the only one struggling, you lose that strength. no one wants to be the martyr, the only one buying into the whole thing. and if its impossible for everyone else, who am i to think i can do it? so im asking you Frumsatire, or anyone else… how do those who want to stay shomer keep at it when everyone else seems to be taking it so lightly?
anonym00kie
-06002007-06-13T10:39:43-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:39:43 -0600 5, 206
oh and of course great post, and dead on accurate.. but satire is meant to be thought provoking.. so… it got me thinking, sorry 🙂
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T10:43:07-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:43:07 -0600 5, 206
Anonymookie- truthfully i dont think people really care either way or have very strong beliefs. (this is not talking about EVERYONE-this is a generalization). Im a BK girl whose group of close friends all went to BK BYs or similar yeshiva type schools. Most of my friends were not shomer – to varying degrees- 3rd base generally tho. I mean I cant begin to count how many girls I know who arentwerent shomer. I get the impression people just dont think its a big deal and just dont care and never really thought about it in a spiritual is it right is it wrong context- you just do it
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T10:45:57-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:45:57 -0600 5, 206
Josh: I cannot mention the city where this happened, but in a city I visit quite frequently many of the girls that were shomer negia during high school decided to hook up with each other and everyone either saw it(including me) or heard about it. Its pretty much a famous event in this city- which pains me to hold back the name.
Aliza: I think many of these people will become the SUE shomer until engaged. Of course many people will end up being 100% until marriage but I have yet to find them.
Yumma: I can definately edit to suit your needs but you should check out this post which may already contain what you are looking for. It was basically an expose on MODERN orthodox. https://frumsatire.wordpress.com/2007/02/21/modern-orthodox-stereotyping-and-judging/
Shipgra: I know exactly what you mean, I in fact have met many baal teshuva’s in similar situations, where they are in theater or dancers and that is the one thing they cannot give up. Dancing is also way different when its not the shaking your booty on some guys pecker in the club.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T10:47:52-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:47:52 -0600 5, 206
For all of those who dont beleive that Brooklyn is the center of the earth Jenn is talking about Brooklyn Bais Yaakov schools.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T10:52:47-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:52:47 -0600 5, 206
anonym00kie // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06
“i have a question.. for those of you who agree with s.n., how do you hold yourself back when you read posts like these, when it sounds like no one else is keeping it? ”
before i give an answer- where u always shomer if i may ask?
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T10:55:18-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:55:18 -0600 5, 206
Mookie:
It happens to be the fact that some folks in more progressive circles that have talked about mikvah for single women who were going to be sexually active anyway- shows that in fact some of the people are not shomer actually care an iota about taharas mishpacha.
I would definately put myself in the category of shomer negia that is. I am to a certain degree, I would never profess to be a master. When I was engaged I was not, when an old lady wants to pinch my cheek I let them, when my old friends of the family who are women go in for the hug- I don’t put up a piece of cardboard to block them.
Even if you have strong beliefs and I generally do, I think that many people focus on much more external and communal issues like shabbos and kosher.
Shomer negia is also tough because- besides being hard, sex and relationship is a natural need for humans- and there comes a point when abstaining is humanly impossible unless you are nuts.
I happen to embrace negia since I was almost married- and you know why? The only reason I keep negia now- is because prior to being engaged- I had never actually touched someone I loved- then when you do- you realize that touching for the sake of sex or other non loving things SUCKS, thats right- there is no comparison and I think I only came to that realization after being not shomer negia with my fiance.
Kind of crazy eh, I also think that the Lord puts many nisrynos in front of folks that are tough, like a hot girl all over you at some bar mitzvah- I probably would fail that challenge to tell the truth- though it hasn’t happened yet.
Adam
-06002007-06-13T10:58:55-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 10:58:55 -0600 5, 206
Great post. I’m SBSH and I also hug my nieces/aunts & if there is no escape, cousins (example: when my cousin’s duaghter insisted I hug my cousin). That would be another category – SBMSB – shomer but maintains shalom bayis.
Anonymookie:
As for staying SN, I always tell myself if I don’t keep it, someday, somehow it’s going to come around and bite me in the ass big time. You can eat a piece of chazer in the middle of no where and no one else will know, but to not be SN involves someone else who has a mouth that talks. It’s kind of sick that some people get worked up over whether what they put in their stomach is kosher beyond reproach, but will go on tfillin dates. And of course you can’t ask anyone if they fooled around because you would be implying that they’re hypocrits and sluts (this applies to both men and women) and no frum person could ever be a slut or a hypocrit. I haven’t met one yet, have you?
anonym00kie
-06002007-06-13T11:19:36-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:19:36 -0600 5, 206
jennthejewess – not being shomer, and not caring aren’t the same thing. i think we can agree that many poeple arent shomer, but i dont think we have any idea how many care. i think lots of people care – a lot- but have a hard time holding back…
(and btw i’m a bt..)
frumbutwithit – i understand why someone wants to be s.n. but my question is, how do posts and comments like this not weaken your determination to do what’s right?
adam – why should it be worse to go on a tfillin date than to eat kfc?
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T11:39:37-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:39:37 -0600 5, 206
Anonymookie- I only asked because If it was someone who never touched a guy or was intimate I would tell them that the way you hold back is by knowing its not worth it. Maybe you dont agree with me but unless your in a really serious relationship I really feel it it not worth it and it is serious not as “good” (fooling around not sex-i dont know about that) as one would think. I find girls almost always get very emotionally involved- usually much more quickly and more deeply than the guys and almost always get hurt because of this.
Also the idea that some people have of Ill just do such and such once -to get it out of my system- does not work. Usually one thing leads to another and once you start you want it more.If anyone is interested i can elaborate on all thisbut im not going to without a request.
But to someone who has not always been shomer i dont really know what to say because maybe thier experieces were good and other stuff is involved. All i can say is to be strong and try to remeber everything how it actually was and not how you are remembering it (we tend to only remember the good parts of the past).
As usual this is just MYopinions and feelings
jess
-06002007-06-13T12:53:14-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:53:14 -0600 5, 206
IF someone is a ffb or bt, I’ve been witness to the hush hush whispers that turn into CRAZY rumors about people that went from the hugging in public or on shabbatons, or at shul, to full out sex and fooling around. This may or may not have occurred. I don’t know, (don’t really care–) but people like to talk. so, that’s why people put on the front of being shomer. Cuz they know what they would assume if they saw someone who ‘looks’ frum touching someone in public.
HESH MAN — i have to say that MOST people I believe are the shomer until opportunity…whether that be a relationship, fiance, hook up just for starbucks**, whatever….
I have to say….if you want to be true to shomer. keep VERY VERY Strict yichud laws!!!!
Ahuva
-06002007-06-13T12:53:45-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:53:45 -0600 5, 206
Interesting post. Oh and, fyi, you can get oral herpes without breaking shomer negia. Babies have been known to pass it in daycare by sharing teething rings.
yumma
-06002007-06-13T13:03:29-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:03:29 -0600 5, 206
Hesh:
That actually is a pretty funny post.
I think where you are wrong about Negiah is that, while it is extra special to touch someone you have real feelings for, that is not the way the Negiah concept is taught. Touching equals sex at this point, at least in some yeshivas. And while that works to set up boundaries in your youth, when you get older it just seems ridiculous. Also, when you get older and realize, like evrything else, the world is never as black and white as you were taught but is grey everyhwere, the idea that you should not touch or be touched–a basic human connection–becomes harder to accept, even by those more yeshivish
Mark
-06002007-06-13T13:04:03-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:04:03 -0600 5, 206
Dude rocking post, I am all for the SJTGS- Shomer just to get some. Exactly like it sounds, tell some frummy chick your shomer and then bam- you get all lovey dubby and hook that shit up.
I know plenty of guys think like this since I always see them hitting on girls who made it very clear that they are shomer.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T13:07:13-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:07:13 -0600 5, 206
Yumma: Are you aware that there is a city called Yuma- its in the southwest?
I agree with you completely- and then to make it worse you cant even touch yourself, and that topic will be for another time.
Mark: I think that what you are saying is actually true, I in fact used to find myself still hoping that the girl I was courting, though claiming to be shomer, would in fact break down and proclaim her love for me with some action.
cetlavie
-06002007-06-13T13:26:14-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:26:14 -0600 5, 206
very intersting and thanks for sharing your own xperiences and insights, i’m impressed by your attitude.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T13:47:44-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 13:47:44 -0600 5, 206
Mark- so sick but so true i knew girls who LOVED to try to “break” guys who were shomer
rebelwithacause
-06002007-06-13T14:32:27-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 14:32:27 -0600 5, 206
jennthejewess // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06
Mark- so sick but so true i knew girls who LOVED to try to “break” guys who were shomer
@Jenn. Maybe the boys weren’t shomer to start with. I guess no one is anyone’s victim. People can say no to temptation if they want to. It’s not like we are animals and can’t control ourselves if someone tries to seduce us, really.
@Hesh, thanks for mentioning the JOC-Jewish Outdoors Club, as I wasn’t aware of their existence. I am gonna try to hook up with them when I am in NY and most definitely go hiking and rock climbing with them.
MW
-06002007-06-13T16:33:52-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:33:52 -0600 5, 206
You left out one catagory-I am an FFB Bais Yaakov type of girl who is shomer Negia all the way and is perfectly fine with it. I am extremely open minded and does not live in a box. My family is also normal and all keep SN. I am an SN because I am a g-d fearing jew and knows that it is completely against the Torah to be anything else-until marriage of course, then its only you and your spouse. That is how it is sapposed to be. I never had a problem with it cuz that is how I was brought up and it never entered my mind that I could do otherwise. I know it is wrong and I am fine with it. I do like guys and think they are fun to talk to and hang out with, but I dont because it is very likely that there would be attraction and I dont want it to come to that if I know it is not for marriage purposes. (It anyway says in the Gemara that 2 pple can not go out on a date if it is not for marriage purposes!) I do talk to guys like my brothers freinds or friends brothers if they are around but I dont “flirt” with them. I am in “shidduchim” and I want to get married but I have no teiyva for anything else that is meaningless and that has no future. There are no gray areas on this topic. It IS all black and white, and I dont know where everyone comes off thinking it is okay to not be an SN. There are NO loopholes!!
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T16:39:37-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:39:37 -0600 5, 206
Actually women do have a loop hole. It is called the good old trusty detachable shower hose. There is no halachic prohibition against women and masturbation.
Real God fearing/loving folks are hard to find, I fear God, but I always wonder who actually fears and loves him to the point that they realize everything they do is being watched under a close lens. This of course would mean that someone had no tests and nisrynos- almost impossible.
Shomer negia is not my test, I think I have a harder time with loshon horah which arguably is more important as well as learning torah when I can.
MW
-06002007-06-13T16:58:41-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:58:41 -0600 5, 206
I dont agree that loshon hora is more important then SN cuz most mitsvos and aveiros were made around this topic and how to avoid it. Also, real g-d fearing jews dont look for loopholes in this area cuz they know it is not exactly what Hashem wants us to be doing. I dont mean to sound all high ‘n mighty or fake but I am one of those who fear and love hashem all at the same time and know I am being watched at all times, but I deffinatly have nisronos and am constantly being tested. Mine are actually on bitachon that everything that happens in this world is for the good and everything will work out. But whatever the case, I still cant beleive pple think that not being SN is ok, because it is not! It is a complete aveira!
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T17:12:12-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:12:12 -0600 5, 206
I don’t think people believe its ok, I think that when your caught in the moment many people start to justify or just throw it out of their minds. Like they know its wrong but they are going to do it anyway.
What about things like hair covering that is right in the torah, in fact it was in it a few weeks ago- people love to justify being lenient on that losasey by saying its for fanatics. But that is plain to see and hardly deniable like other laws.
Ben-Yehudah
-06002007-06-13T17:54:48-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 17:54:48 -0600 5, 206
B”H The last time I shook a woman’s hand was 8 yrs. ago. She offered it to me to congratulate me on something, and I believe it would’ve embarrassed her if didn’t just quickly take it, and not make a big deal out of it. She’s not religious, and it was a quick action done out of excitement. When “religious” women, who make a big issue of being religious get too close or want to sit next to me on the bus, I make a big deal out of it,…subtly. I don’t like hypocrisy. I try to be patient and tolerant with non-religious in non-religious areas.
jacob
-06002007-06-13T18:44:35-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:44:35 -0600 5, 206
Nice thread, people!
Um, I guess I’m ..um… well, People who know me read this blog but whatever, I’m pretty open about stuff.
I wasn’t Shomer for many years, and never pretended to be.
Then I decided to take a break from things for awhile and stayed celibate for about 3 years before I got married.
It’s easy to proclaim S.N. ,those who aren’t sexy but I get hit on all the time , even while I wear my wedding ring.
It’s a real Nisayon to be Shomer and people should not proclaim it to be easy and all like M.W.
During the time that I was celibate (note: not shomer, as I always shake hands and kiss relatives etc) I still had girls hunting me down and it was brutal.
So stop be self righteous about it S.N. and aknowledge that not everyone is a frumpy dawg .
MW
-06002007-06-13T18:49:26-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:49:26 -0600 5, 206
Very good Ben-Yehuda.
Frumbutwithit-Those pple who try not to think about it are not fully g-d fearing because they are justifying the fact that hashem is not there and cant see what they are doing or they dont care. They cant controll themselves. It is very sad and I realize how the jewish world has such a problem with this and I am so thankful that I dont have this problem. I might have it in other ways, I am human, but B”H not in this area cuz it is one of the most major problems and aveiros and issues out there. I have been put into such situations like these but B”H overcame them and didnt let my Yetzer Hora over come me. (wow, I sound like a rebbetzin lol) But really, being young, attractive, single and normal (LOL!) and men hitting on me all the time, I still manage to overcome my teiyvos and ignore it. So if I could do it, anyone can! Its not so hard. You just gotta ignore them. Dont aknowledge them. Know that you are worth something and they dont want you for you, and hashem will help you find your “other half” quicker if you do his ratzon.
ci
-06002009-08-25T14:20:48-06:00312009b-06:00Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:20:48 -0600 5, 206
your hundred percent correct on your thought may you be blessed by Hashem . I like you standing your grounds good luck.
MW
-06002007-06-13T18:56:02-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:56:02 -0600 5, 206
I know it is not easy, I am just saying that it is easier for me because I have a certain mindset. But anyway, I know there are diff pple out there, I just dont get how they think it is completely “mutar” to not be SN. I cant say it is totaly easy cuz I REALLY like guys, but since I am doing the right thing Hashem will help me find my hubby! Fast!!
lakewoodshmuck
-06002007-06-13T18:58:11-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 18:58:11 -0600 5, 206
very great post!
jacob
-06002007-06-13T19:22:19-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:22:19 -0600 5, 206
MW, please get used to the fact that not everyone views G-d as you do.
You see the world in black and white. It’s just not that way.
I see things different than you. G-d does not judge me based on what you, or anyone says he does.
He views me differently, as he created each of us in a different mold.
You obviously have no problem with S.N. ..so what IS your nisayon in life? Now lets hear you be so self righteous about what is difficult for you, personally.
MW
-06002007-06-13T19:46:16-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:46:16 -0600 5, 206
I know G-d judges everyone according to who they are and not other pple, I am sorry if you think I am judging. I am just digusted by the fact that pple dress a certain way and act a certain way on the outside but on the inside they do sick things. I despise fakers. I also understand perfectly that it is a nisayon for other pple, I just dont understand how they think that what they ared oing is correct. It might be hard for them and that is fine but just as long as you know it is wrong and are trying to become better is all that counts. If you slip up it is ok, only hashem judges and knows what level each person is on. If you know it is wrong but do it anyway-that is wrong. And if you think it is right, that is even worse. I dont see the world in black and white, but I just said that this topic of SN is more or less. Now everyones nisyonos on keeping it is a diff story. And as I wrote in an earlier post, my nisayon right now if you must know is having bitachon in Hashem that everything that happens in life is for the good and everything will turn out good at the end.-I recently went through something that was very difficult and I have to have bitachon that it was for the good, and I have to beleive it is good and it will be good in the future. (is that detailed enough for you?!?)
Mark
-06002007-06-13T19:57:33-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:57:33 -0600 5, 206
Screw this I am going to get laid.
jacob
-06002007-06-13T20:02:27-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:02:27 -0600 5, 206
“It might be hard for them and that is fine but just as long as you know it is wrong and are trying to become better is all that counts. If you slip up it is ok, only hashem judges and knows what level each person is on. If you know it is wrong but do it anyway-that is wrong. And if you think it is right, that is even worse.”
On one hand you are saying it’s ok to slip but then reverse that?
jacob
-06002007-06-13T20:03:32-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:03:32 -0600 5, 206
My sympathies with regards to the last line of your comment, M.W.
David Kilimnick
-06002007-06-13T20:06:44-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:06:44 -0600 5, 206
Shalom Heshy,
It’s 4:30am where I am and I will type.
You have just ruined the modern orthodox community. You don’t let out the shomer secrets. The rule is that if you keep the Toirah for in front of mom and dad, you are good to go. By the way, I am working on the sequel to 40Year Old Virgin- that was a horror flick, not a comedy. I was in the theater connecting with Steve Carrel (if I spelled it wrong- I am Israeli and we can do that). Sand sounds right.
Now I’m tired.
Aliza, this is for you- I read your comment and I must say- for all of our sake- please talk to guys. I understand you are a Chozeret B’Tshuva, and mitzvot might seem cool. But don’t let the rabbis tell you you shouldn’t talk to guys- they are killing my chances with every girl. If I meet you at a party and we like each other, don’t give me your rabbi’s number. Rabbis aren’t into my type- they don’t like goatees. The whole Nevei for girls Chzeret B’Tshuva school is killing me. The rabbi there writes these books ‘Permission To Receive,’ Permission To Believe.’ All we want is for you rabbi to give Permission get some GMQN- Get Married Quickly Negiah. That is where you are so connected with Toirah and Halacha and you get engaged on the second date. You realize that the only way you can get your somesome is to get married. This is the reason for the 17 and 18 year old marriages. Sometimes they get married even though they had fun. They realize that they can’t hide from mom and dad, when they are still under their roof. Hence, DSN- Dad Support Negiah. That is, once your frum dad is so happy you are married, he realizes you have no college education. At this point, you have the ‘I have the wife’ excuse, ‘thou she is still in high school,’ and you get full day negiah, because you are both drop outs, getting a real job is forbidden/asur, and you are starting a phone-card business. This one bothers me because I the 30 year olds will never have DSN.
Now I am tired.
Lehitraot,
David Kilimnick
MW
-06002007-06-13T20:13:12-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:13:12 -0600 5, 206
Thanks Jacob, though its not that bad. Also, I am not saying it is ok to slip up but it happens and G-d understands and knows what level each person is on and judges accordingly!
jacob
-06002007-06-13T20:19:05-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:19:05 -0600 5, 206
Aight, MW. As long as we are clear.
Come on over to my place and check it out:
http://jacobdajew.blogspot.com
iCE hORSE
-06002007-06-13T20:24:08-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:24:08 -0600 5, 206
Is bob able to walk better gained since the last time look just the same lets say for the newbies on hbo famous clip many years ago touch football like veterans who have been shot in the knee got the clip at least its a dipsy doo and was sooooo nervous so everytime he drinks its like well ok i was getting it so LOL! he may have just been thirsty we may never know?????!!!
Aliza
-06002007-06-13T20:25:12-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:25:12 -0600 5, 206
Woah, David.
To be completely honest, it’s not that I don’t want to talk with guys, and I really don’t listen to what the people in this community say about it, either.
Really, I just never get the opportunity to hang out with guys. I think I would, though, ,if someone asked. But for sure I wouldn’t touch, it’s just not something I’d be comfortable with anymore.
It’s just the only guys I know now are all yeshiva bochrim,m and none of them are even my age, they’re all in high school lol. If I were to meet one my age or a little older, I’d have no problem hanging out, it’s just that I know I’d be scared if someone from school might see me or something. That’d be mortifying, and I have no idea if they’d let me stay in my seminary or not…
And I have absolutely no problem whatsoever talking to guys online.
That’s pretty much how I get my fix, actually. If I can’t do it in public, I may as well do it online.
Hmm, that souunds kinda iffy, though…
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T20:30:36-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:30:36 -0600 5, 206
David Kilimnick:
Your spelling and grammar is almost as poor as mine- but I crown you with one of the best comments in a long time. Do me a favor and comment on some other posts so I have something funny and interesting to read. We need some Israeli perspectives.
Dofan Akuma
-06002007-06-13T20:31:23-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:31:23 -0600 5, 206
Mookie & MW,
in my experience in the yeshiva world there are many many folks who are completely SN. The thing is that this contingent is severely under-represented on the blogs because they don’t have internet. Even though i have left this crowd in order to go to school and get a job, the majority of them deserve a lot of credit for their genuine commitment to torah and all that comes with it.
i would also agree that the key is to not let the situation come up in the first place, i.e. keep yichud laws. This is much easier in yeshivish communities, because there aren’t any girls in the beis medrash, and in general it is taboo to just shmooz with the opposite sex.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T20:32:43-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:32:43 -0600 5, 206
Wow the iCE hORSE is back- mazel tov. We have been waiting a long time for your mildly offensive comments.
MW
-06002007-06-13T20:41:31-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:41:31 -0600 5, 206
Akuma-I agree!
And Aliza, ur almost out of seminary so I would tell you not to care what pple think, but who we kiddin you are consitered an eligable bachlorett so you have to care what pple think! LOL!! All the guys I know are perfect age and I have no problem talking to them. Though I wouldnt touch not because I wouldnt feel comfortable (though I wouldnt) but because I am not allowed to. If it was allowed, I would prob hang out with them 24/7 cuz they are a ton of fun and much more interesting then girls!! LOL!!
Aliza
-06002007-06-13T20:45:34-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:45:34 -0600 5, 206
MW, the way I see it, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with talking to or hanging with guys. It’s just touching that’s the problem.
And that’s why the second I’m out of seminary, I’m not gonna care anymore if people or see or whatever because it woin’t matter then. Now it’s out of fear of being kicked out of school, later it won’t be a problem because I’ll be going to uuniversity and won’t be in the BY community anymore. They’re just convenient for now, to help me out for education and Shabbat. I don’t have to be BY to be in a BY school, and it’s as simple as that 🙂
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T21:09:38-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:09:38 -0600 5, 206
MW…im not sure how you came up with which mitzvos are more important than others but ill leave that to you to sort out.
Also not everything is black and white, this is really something you should try to understand. You come off (I am not saying you ARE but that u appear to be) very niave, self-righteous, narrow minded and judgemental. I am not saying that not being SN is right or wrong but that the BY system which I went through and still associate with basically teaches everything one way and is not necessarily the completely correct way.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T21:10:16-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:10:16 -0600 5, 206
oh and mark i think u have the right idea 🙂
mazeartist
-06002007-06-13T21:10:46-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:10:46 -0600 5, 206
I am shomer towards any woman, even concerning my fiancee, we are both shomer in public. But at home… we hold hands.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T21:19:32-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:19:32 -0600 5, 206
BTW MW u sound like some guy making up all these posts…again just MY speculation…but i get that vibe from the way u speak
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T21:19:50-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:19:50 -0600 5, 206
Maze artist you are sooooo dirty, do you also talk dirty about how much chrain you will put on her gefilte fish and how much worrying she’s going to do when your gone at work.
anonym00kie
-06002007-06-13T21:22:45-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:22:45 -0600 5, 206
MW, its great that youre so determined and sure of yourself, but its obvious that youve never had to deal with this issue seriously. this is a good thing, but it would be a better thing to be grateful , and even better not to rub it in people’s faces -shows a real lack of maturity and understanding
jacob
-06002007-06-13T21:24:28-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:24:28 -0600 5, 206
Yay!!!!
Ice Horse is back!
Where the fuck have you been, Dude? Me and Hesh were just talking about you..You melted in the heat or something?
jacob
-06002007-06-13T21:27:12-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:27:12 -0600 5, 206
Maze Artist, I read your article in the Jewish Mess.
Congrats!
(Not like I understoo what the fuck you were talking about , but thats a different problem)
jacob
-06002007-06-13T21:30:59-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:30:59 -0600 5, 206
M.W. is getting slaughtered by the veteran Bloggers..
Lookie here girl, we Blogsters have alot of experience bashing and ripping so please watch your step!
jacob
-06002007-06-13T21:31:17-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:31:17 -0600 5, 206
Jenn, you sound cool. Where’s your bloggy?
Shayna
-06002007-06-13T21:32:59-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:32:59 -0600 5, 206
How many of you remember the one hit wonder NCSY song about shomer negia?
Because I’m shomer negia so leave me alone,
if you want to reach out a touch me just pick up the phone,
Stay on your side of the line,
because my body is exclusively mine,
no hugging or kissing no touching at all,
if you need someone to lean on,
just lean on the wall,
MW
-06002007-06-13T21:34:08-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:34:08 -0600 5, 206
Makes sence Aliza, cept hanging out and talking to guys is a problem cuz it may come to attraction, actually it ia likely. That is what happened to me. I became friends with a family friends son and we ended up really likeing eachother and he was too young to date and it was distracting him from his learning eventhough we never talked much but we thought about eachother a lot, it was too hard for him so now we dont talk anymore. I am letting him learn.-you see it might seem innocent at the begining but it may turn into something and that is when it gets tricky. So thats why there are all these rules as to it should not come to the level of trickiness. Got it??
jacob
-06002007-06-13T21:36:58-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:36:58 -0600 5, 206
mmmm, M.W, young blood. Sounds interesting and good to me.
Older women rock!
Anonymous
-06002007-06-13T21:41:06-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:41:06 -0600 5, 206
Just because people are not shomer negia does not mean that they do not fear or love God. First of all there are countless ways to determine the halacha and countless ways that people love and fear God. Some people keep all the strictest interpretations while others take a more spiritual route.
Secondly I think the person who wrote this did not mean to say that most people do not care about this aspect of the “law” in quotes. I think he wanted to open our minds as to the different levels of keeping negia as well as make us laugh our asses off at the same time- satire indeed- thought provoking and funny as hell.
Many people would including myself wish we could keep negia, the simple truth is that for some it is too hard and we would rather start with improving things we can first, like being 100% shomer shabbos. How many times I have done the melocho of borer and had no idea I was doing it? This is chayev misa- while shomer negia is what?
Furthermore, I do think that many keep 100% negia and this post was not aimed at them. I do however also think that many folks keep it in public and don’t divulge what really goes on in private. But this is like all other internal mitzvos, like keeping kosher, masturbating and cheating on your taxes.
By the way, thanks to facebook I came across your blog.
jacob
-06002007-06-13T21:42:07-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:42:07 -0600 5, 206
Nice comment, Anon.
MW
-06002007-06-13T21:49:12-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:49:12 -0600 5, 206
I know not everything is black and white but I think that when it comes to SN-it is more black and white on what is wrong and what is not. I am not naive, judgemental or uneducated, in fact I am educated cuz I learned from the Torah what is right and wrong on this topic.
Jen, I am not a guy!! Ha ha! Its hystericle! If you would know me you would think the complete opposite! I am SUCH a girl!! Pink razor phone, pink camera, pink siddur, ect. But whatever, I still think its funny.
Mookie-Its great how you guys think you know my type but in reality its the complete opposite. I did infact go through something big in this topic and if I would say it into detail you would think I have every right to say what I say. Whatever I went through I overcame and it was all “kosher”. I had a great opportunity in SN and I overcame it and did the right thing. I thought it would be really hard and it was for a bit, but it turned out to be not so terrible.
Because I do have experience, I feel I have every right to say what I say. I am not naive or judgemental. If you knew me you would know that I am the complete opposite!
Anonymous
-06002007-06-13T21:49:51-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:49:51 -0600 5, 206
Thank you Jacob, it just bothers me that all of orthodoxy is fixated on a black and white way of doing things- when of all people they should know that there are 20 different opinions for everything. Shulchan Orech, Mishna Brura, The Tur, Kitzur Sulchan Orech, Sulchan Orech Harav, and plenty more.
Further more there are plenty of orthodox Jews that don’t believe everything that was forced into us during yeshiva. Then you have people who are violent in their beliefs- a more serious version of militant shomer negia and they would rather have their insular little club then attract more yidden into the fold. Hence we create communities of little divergence of opinion in public while the same people break all the laws at home- instead of creating an open forum like this to discuss the issue.
Though it is mocking mostly, many of the posts on this blog bring up this exact issue, how the stereotyping and creating negativity chases people away rather then bringing them closer.
It is sad to say but veahavta lereacha kamocha should be placed ahead of separate lines at the bakery and kosher water.
jacob
-06002007-06-13T21:50:50-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:50:50 -0600 5, 206
“If you knew me you would know that I am the complete opposite!”
But we don’t…
You have to understand- you are the newbie.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T21:51:57-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:51:57 -0600 5, 206
I am going to sleep so I will leave you all to bicker amongst yourselves- though checking these comments is getting addicting.
Hey MW did you know that the color pink was banned by the charedim several months back. Pink is very untznius- are you of the SCT variety then?
MW
-06002007-06-13T21:56:57-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:56:57 -0600 5, 206
I hear you anon. I have no problem with diff types of pple. I am very open. Keep SN or dont keep it, I am not judging anyone who does or doesnt cuz I dont know them and I dont care. The only problem I had is with pple who hide it and are fake and pple who think that sleeping around and things like that ate NOT against halacha. I dont care if you do it or not just dont say that it is 100% mutar!
jacob
-06002007-06-13T21:59:01-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:59:01 -0600 5, 206
Sweet and wet dreams, Hesh
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-13T22:00:32-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:00:32 -0600 5, 206
Mutar according to who that is the question? I would love it someone will look up some of the sources for this, since there are many instances of touching by great folks of our heritage without them being severely punished.
You also just judged by saying mutar- some folks may not even go by yours and my halachic sources. Halacha is the largest gray area in Judaism after all.
The problem I have is with folks who shidduch date while they are screwing around and I wrote something about this issue which occurs so much nowadays.
MW
-06002007-06-13T22:00:52-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:00:52 -0600 5, 206
What?? I never heard that? Anyway, I dont care. Who banned it. I dont follow any chasidus or “group” anyway so it doesnt affect me. LOL! But seriously, I dont think thats true cuz it makes no sence!
MW
-06002007-06-13T22:04:47-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:04:47 -0600 5, 206
I am trying to fugure out if we even keep the same Torah? If you must know, I spoke to a Rav about the a guy and he quoted in the Gemara that it is assur for 2 pple to go out on a even go on a date if it is not for marriagable purposes! That was in the Gemara, and if you learn or keep to what the Gemara says then what I am saying is true. Well its true anyway whether you listen or not! I have sources!
jacob
-06002007-06-13T22:08:36-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:08:36 -0600 5, 206
MW is going off the wall!
Baby, please chill out. This is a blog, and a satirical one at that.
Hesh is having so much fun, please, let him go to bed now.
MW
-06002007-06-13T22:24:26-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:24:26 -0600 5, 206
I am chilled out, it seems that I am going crazy but really I am just writing whatever comes to my head. I am totaly calm.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T22:32:25-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:32:25 -0600 5, 206
MW i realize now that my thinking you are a guy is because I found it hard to believe that anyone would really write like you do – it is just an immaturity. The LOL!!! all the exclamation points etc seemed very put on like a guy trying to sound like a very ditzy girl. The way you write is just a bit childish…not trying to offend just pointing out the facts. Also you really seem to THINK you know halacha inside out but i do get the feeling you dont really know the half of it and are just regurgitating everything we were preached about in BY.
Oh and this is a humor blog stop taking it so literally and please as jacob said CHILL
Anon- Welcome- your posts were really on target…and so well thought out and well written please dontt be a stranger to these walls!
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-13T22:34:31-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:34:31 -0600 5, 206
Oh and Jacob…coming from u I am really flattered with the “you sound cool”! Unfortunately I dont have a blog eventhough I have much to say…its a combo of laziness & poor writing ability
MW
-06002007-06-13T22:43:40-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:43:40 -0600 5, 206
If you would only know how sarcastic I am you would not be telling me that. I hate writing things instead of saying them because you dont know the expressions the other person is using and you cant really tell what exactly the person is trying to say. I seem like I am mad but really I am laughing my head off. I am having so much fun with this, I am so not serious. Also, the whole thing with the LOL and exclamation points…I am just trying to get across that I think its funny and harmless. It is hard to show experession and that is some sort of showing it.
Mark
-06002007-06-13T22:46:23-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:46:23 -0600 5, 206
I guess chicks fighting is almost as good a getting laid.
MW
-06002007-06-13T22:53:36-06:00302007b-06:00Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:53:36 -0600 5, 206
Dude, go to sleep! LOL!-wait or maybe I should write ha ha cuz apparently it is too immature to write LOL. How else should I express that I am laughing? (oh, and I am laughing right now, so ha ha!)
rebelwithacause
-06002007-06-14T01:19:03-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 01:19:03 -0600 5, 206
MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I dont mean to sound all high ‘n mighty or fake but I am one of those who fear and love hashem all at the same time and know I am being watched at all times, but I deffinatly have nisronos and am constantly being tested.
BUT you do want to sound high and mighty. You are NOT a tzadik. Even the tzaddik falls
seven times and gets up.
MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I have been put into such situations like these but B”H overcame them and didnt let my Yetzer Hora over come me. (wow, I sound like a rebbetzin lol)
A rebetzin is NOT a rabbi and many people have the false notion that a rebetzin is a very learned person. In many cases that’s not the reality.
MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I know G-d judges everyone according to who they are and not other pple, I am sorry if you think I am judging
You ARE judging other Jews.
MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I know not everything is black and white but I think that when it comes to SN-it is more black and white on what is wrong and what is not. I am not naive, judgemental or uneducated, in fact I am educated cuz I learned from the Torah what is right and wrong on this topic.
You are very naive, judgemental and uneducated. You have no clue about life.
MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 Because I do have experience, I feel I have every right to say what I say. I am not naive or judgemental. If you knew me you would know that I am the complete opposite!
You are what my grandfather called a dog that did not get hit by a stone. A dog that says at home and is sheltered does not get a real grasp of how things are in the real world. He gets free food, free accomodation and has a sheltered life. The street smart doggie however fights with many issues and facts in the real world, and might also get kicked and have stones thrown at him too. People who have communicated with you on this blog are people who have lived and learned from life. You are a young immature child and has NO clue about life.
Go on with with your sheltered life, happy inbreeding and hopefully you won’t mix into the mainstream gene pool cause people like you only discriminate on fellow Jews.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-14T05:24:57-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 05:24:57 -0600 5, 206
Even before work I had to check and yes the ladies are still fighting. I can imagine a bunch of skirt wearing girls pulling at each others hair and screaming yiddish obscenities at one another.
I was thinking about some of these comments and here is what I have to say. Shomer Negia is like weed. Some folks say you will regret it when your older and its really bad for you, while others say that makes no difference and its fine. Others try and scientifically prove its wrongness by saying- when you get married, or when you get emphysema and your brain cells die you will regret it. While others just say- think about the law, both acts are illegal plain and simple.
I have met both types of folks, folks who deeplt regretted the acts they did before marriage- but not until they saw how good marriage was. And then I know married folks who attribute their great married sex life to the fact they knew what the G-spot was.
Oh and my roommate says that Shomer negia is mentioned in the Rambam, I thought we ashkenazim go according to the Shulchan Aruch
MW
-06002007-06-14T07:22:07-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:22:07 -0600 5, 206
Dont bash me and say I am judgemental when everything you just wrote is judging me. You dont know who I am and making a statement like that is completely judgmental. Also, what exactly did I say that is “judging other jews”??Anyhoo, we will straighten this all out later, I gotta go to work. Toodles!
rebelwithacause
-06002007-06-14T07:43:14-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:43:14 -0600 5, 206
frumbutwithit // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06
Even before work I had to check and yes the ladies are still fighting. I can imagine a bunch of skirt wearing girls pulling at each others hair and screaming yiddish obscenities at one another.
I thought you would rather want a wet t-shirt concert combined with mud fighting, lol. 😀
I keep glatt kosher negiah, I check the lungs of the person I go on a shidduch with, lol. 😛
rebelwithacause
-06002007-06-14T07:52:26-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:52:26 -0600 5, 206
Oh I forgot, I fall under SCT- Shomer cock tease. 🙂
Hehs, you forgot to mention that SCTs also wear stilettos besides the hooker boots.
rebelwithacause
-06002007-06-14T07:58:41-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:58:41 -0600 5, 206
MW // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06
Dont bash me and say I am judgemental when everything you just wrote is judging me. You dont know who I am and making a statement like that is completely judgmental.
Uh huh, whatever!!!
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-14T08:12:29-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:12:29 -0600 5, 206
jennthejewess // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06
Firstly Rebel – You are my hero!!! Everything I wanted to say, you put into to words and so coherently! This kid has no clue about life
MW-
MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06 I have been put into such situations like these but B”H overcame them and didnt let my Yetzer Hora over come me. (wow, I sound like a rebbetzin lol)
Your little “flirtation” with your friends bro or your bros friend is NOT considered experience! So you flirted (or what you think is flirted) a bit maybe even spoke on the phone and considered him your BF for a couple days…This is not experience and does not give you the right to preach and speak like you have experience.
BTW who the heck has a pink siddur? Again why its so hard to believe your a girl
And “But really, being young, attractive, single and normal (LOL!) and men hitting on me all the time” Just riddle me this -why is such a nice frum aidel girl in places where men are constantly hitting on her? Men esp frum men generally hit on ppl they they get the vibe that are interested….maybe you give off that impression? This whole thing literally makes no sense, but the crux of the issue i think is this….
MW // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06
I am chilled out, it seems that I am going crazy but really I am just writing whatever comes to my head. I am totaly calm.
Listen some of us really enjoy the blog and commenting maybe you should try to think for a min before you type so you dont just spew whatever comes to your head- it doesnt always make sense and is not necessarily correct. Maybe Im the only one who thinks this but its mad annoying.
oh and FYI you seriously contradict yourself every other post
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-14T08:30:37-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:30:37 -0600 5, 206
i just posted a long post…what does i mean waiting to be moderated?
Nigel Ian III
-06002007-06-14T09:21:53-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:21:53 -0600 5, 206
MW – this is why this is not the place for a psot seminary naive
Good Luck
yumma
-06002007-06-14T10:49:43-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:49:43 -0600 5, 206
Hesh:
I like the comparison to weed; it kind of makes sense (if you are stoned). This thread is just an excellent display for showcasing the dichotomy amongst young ortho jews.
Is the world black and white? Is Negiah always wrong? Is the way Negiah is enforced and practiced today always the way it was?
Does it matter that the laws of Negiah were promulgated in an era where women in general and sex in particular were feared and misunderstood? What is the real story with the “Bnos Yisrael?”
Is it really true that all guy/girl interaction is about sex?
I have always found the answer to that last one quite informative. The super frummies, the one who have hardly had any contact with the opposite sex and the intense BT’s, they are the ones saying in agreement with the you-only-talk-to-girls-for-sex idea. It is the rest of us, the non-fundamentalists who exist, not on either end of the spectrum or on either pole–but who muddle through and try to make sense of and maintain fidelity to a stream of Judaism that, in the modern world, has a lot to answer.
So yes, NM, maybe the things you were taught are not as simple as you think them to be
cap1543
-06002007-06-14T11:00:24-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:00:24 -0600 5, 206
100th response, seems a shame for me to waste it on just saying great post
saranwrap
-06002007-06-14T11:14:41-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:14:41 -0600 5, 206
horray for detachable shower heads….
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-14T11:32:27-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:32:27 -0600 5, 206
Yumma- very good comment. 100 freakin comments- I always wondered if I would get there- I guess I may have to leave the post for a while, I am going away for shabbos anyway.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-14T11:33:16-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:33:16 -0600 5, 206
whats up with the moderation hesh?
rebelwithacause
-06002007-06-14T11:54:34-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:54:34 -0600 5, 206
@Jennthejewess I like your comments too. You sound like a very intelligent girl. Y0u should really start your own blog.
yumma // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06
The super frummies, the one who have hardly had any contact with the opposite sex and the intense BT’s, they are the ones saying in agreement with the you-only-talk-to-girls-for-sex idea.
Do you know why? Cause they think about sex ALL the time. What is forbidden is more attractive. I talk to zillions of men during work hours, and that for work purposes and I can guarantee you I never thought about them in a sexual way. Never. Or I end up talking to people in the elevator, just simple chit chat, does this mean I am lusting over them? lol.
Nice Jewish Guy
-06002007-06-14T12:24:29-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:24:29 -0600 5, 206
I’m willing to bet that MW is under tewnty-five.
MW, negiah is a rabbinically instituted geder- a safeguard; not a law. Men instituted it.
In fact, there is nothing in the Torah biblically prohibiting sex. In fact, plenty of charachters in the Torah slept with women without the rituals we know today as marriage. That *was* how they married (biah). Because women were economically dependent upon men, and would be encumbered by a pregnancy and the child to raise should they get pregnant, and because there was no birth control, basically when a man slept with a woman the potential consequences were great- so it wasn’t something to take lightly. If a man slept with a woman, there was a price– money– usually to the father of the girl, or the man would have to marry her (economically support her and the child).
Yehuda slept with Tamar– fully believing that she was a prostitute and not his widowed daughter-in-law– because it was common practice for horny men to visit prostitutes. And we see that Yehuda had to pay her- he gave her his ring and staff in lieu of payment to hold as collateral.
I know, I know… the Midrash gives all sorts of lofty apologetics for Yehuda’s actions, ascribing them to everything from ruach hakodesh to nevuah– but the fact is that the plain meaning of the story is he visited a prostitute.
Men could also have mroe than one wife, as well as concubines, in Torah times.
Negiah is a nice theoretical concept; in reality I’d have to say that more people *don’t* keep it than do. Why? It’s not realistic, that’s why. Humans crave touch. We need to be held as soon as we’re born It’s wired into our systems.
People begin to become sexually aware of themselves at a very early age, around the early teens. In centuries past ( and certainly in Biblical times), in an agrarian society, this wasn’t such a problem because people married early, and died early. Now we defer marriage to get a necessary education in order to survive and support ourselves and families in our *technological society* Plus, we have contraception so the consequences of sex aren’t as much in the forefront.
I posted two pieces on negiah on my own blog, at http://frumstershoppers.blogspot.com/2005/11/little-digression-on-sn.html and
http://frumstershoppers.blogspot.com/2006/12/negiah-revisited.html.
I don’t know if any of you remember Nice Jewish Girl (where I got the inspiration for my nom de blog), and her blog, shomernegiah.blogspot.com. It was one of the original J-blogs, and very poignantly written.
Oh, and obviously, I’m not SN to any degree.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-14T12:48:45-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:48:45 -0600 5, 206
No idea whats up with the moderation, wordpress is wierd sometimes but I usually get to them. Though I will be away from Fri-Tues so moderation may be a problem . The nice Jewish Guy was also moderated.
Nice Jewish guy: finally a man enters the comment with his two cents, and two good cents for that matter.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-14T12:58:30-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:58:30 -0600 5, 206
Rebel…Its a lost cause…frum(mie) ppl do not understand the idea of men and women like intereacting not in a sexual way. Its funny at work the only flirtatious men there are the frum guys. The irreligious and non jews are so normal and not flirtatious! I mean I have been asked out by them but in a nice respectful way.
I have friends who work in these frum offices (mortgages, insurance) where there are mostly youngish single and married frum men…I have visited and heard from them about what goes on. the amount of flirting and innuendo is crazy. they are all “sooo close”. It is such a sexual atmosphere. Its so not normal
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-14T13:12:10-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:12:10 -0600 5, 206
Normal Jewish Guy…great to hear your opinion! Thanks or bringing it to light…I have read your blog in the past and really like it!
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-14T13:13:26-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:13:26 -0600 5, 206
Happens to be that that may not be such a bad thing. You see the speeration of the sexes is meant to keep sexual contact and casual overtones sacred. By frum men thinking that women are only for sex its suuposed to help the marriage. This may have worked in the old days when all women were meant for was child rearing and butter churning.
But nowadays this concept is dead and problematic. It sounds all great on the surface, exactly what you say Jenn is true. Frum males think that women are sex objects or for the purpose of marriage. Hence what happens is that many guys first of all dislike the fact that women maintain full time jobs and also tend to dislike powerful women- since they have this concept of subservient sex slaves stuck in their head.
By the way I did not mean this as a hateful argument- it is plain to see if you ever hang out with women and men who have yeshiva back rounds. The concept stays for a long time, just go to any New York area gathering.
Thank the Lord I do not live in NY and hence do not have to deal with women trying to appear shallow and ditzy and the men loving it. Yes I am judging by the way.
yumma
-06002007-06-14T13:39:54-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:39:54 -0600 5, 206
Rebel:
I think you are probably right in that what is forbidden is also desired most. But I have to say it is far more than that.
The way Negiah is taught forces the random yeshiva guy to think of women only in terms of sex. Think of our confusion. Like NJG said above, Yehuda had sex with basically eveyrone (so did Tamar) but they are not judged based on some patently ridiculous Midrash or that that the Torah was not given etc…
Instead, men and women are taught to view women only through the prism of sexuality; a view of women that only has patience for them as sex objects.
I am a guy and never understood why some frum girls never saw this. Every apology made for the restrictions on touch in the ortho community invariably tracks back to this. Women as a distraction on men, women having the potential to distract men, women distracting men by what they wear and how they wear it. Even covering the hair is like that as well.
What is the result from this singular stress on womens’ dress and touch, the result from thinking of women merely as a turn-on object for men? Sex. That is all. And men, correspondingly, are seen as sex obsessed Neanderthals, incapable of the slightest bit of self-control should a women expose her elbow. It should be offensive to women everywhere, but as a frum guy i find it offensive that ortho girls just lap this up, not thinking critically at all about how this obsession with “turning guys on” makes them look. Is sexuality really all that bad? Can’t a girl dress up how she wants and not have her feelings and self-worth and view of herself chipped away until all she is and all she feels is just an object that could distrcat guys from their sacred mission. SO there we have it, a womens role is to be whatever it takes not to distract guys, who are so easily distracted, right? Hell, as a guy, I am offended at that.
That is the dirty little secret beneath the shiny veneer of all the ortho talk on Shomer Negiah. It is about what these laws and boundaries tell us about ourselves and, not only how we are supposed to feel, but how everyone else is supposed to feel about us.
jennthejewess
-06002007-06-14T13:59:32-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 13:59:32 -0600 5, 206
Wow…yumma i never really thought about it like that…really insightful and so true.
jewlab
-06002007-06-14T15:25:20-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:25:20 -0600 5, 206
Awsome post yet again!
This has become my favorite blog of all times, Your the only blog I have set up on an RSS feed straight to my desktop!
Yea, so this post reminds me of a shirt I have (And designed) – I wear it all the time – Especialy since I got married.
See it here:
http://www.cafepress.com/tachlis.18727233
remember to read the back as well!
LR
-06002007-06-14T16:10:22-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:10:22 -0600 5, 206
“Frum males think that women are sex objects or for the purpose of marriage.”
This got me to thinking about when I asked my rabbi about the Yeshiva in my area and how they have a rule that none of the boys are to talk to any girls unless on a shidduch. I wanted to know why have such a strict limitation.
He told me that there is no other reason to talk girls unless you are going to marry them. I was shocked an appalled to hear this.
I think keeping negiah is a wonderful thing, but there is a point of keeping craziness. Not touching and talking about appropriate things is fine. But not talking at all to the opposite sex is a little limitating. What if I really wanted to hear some Yeshiva guy’s opinion on Nazarite laws according to the Gemara or something or what if he wanted to know what I thought of the tsnuis laws?
sammy
-06002007-06-14T16:29:38-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:29:38 -0600 5, 206
great post
but you missed one
i am shomer negia “i use a condom”
MW
-06002007-06-14T17:11:05-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:11:05 -0600 5, 206
jennthejewess // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06
“the BY system which I went through and still associate with basically teaches everything one way and is not necessarily the completely correct way.”-I agree! They try to shelter you and hide the truth about real life and reality.
rebelwithacause // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06
“A rebetzin is NOT a rabbi and many people have the false notion that a rebetzin is a very learned person. In many cases that’s not the reality.” -I know a rebbitzin is not a rabbi, I just said rebbitzin cuz I am a girl.
“You are a young immature child and has NO clue about life.”-I am not immature and do know about life, I just chose to pick a better one! And yeah, now I am being serious for the first time on this blog!!!
jennthejewess // Jun 14th 2007 at 9:20 p06
“Your little “flirtation” with your friends bro or your bros friend is NOT considered experience! So you flirted (or what you think is flirted) a bit maybe even spoke on the phone and considered him your BF for a couple days…This is not experience and does not give you the right to preach and speak like you have experience.”
-That is not the experience I was reffering to. I wouldnt call that experience, I am not an idiot. Though you might think so but I dont care! LOL! I am not saying what happened but if I did you would think otherwise.
“why is such a nice frum aidel girl in places where men are constantly hitting on her? “-If when you say “place” you are reffering to outside like when I walk in the streets, or go out to eat or go shopping and having a life, then yeah I go to all those places and get hit on all the time and do nothing to cause it.-that is life and I choose to ignore them.
I only really care about this whole thing cuz I work in a place and area where the men look as frum as they come but when they are out of the house they talk to woman on the phone and do G-d knows what behind their wives backs while they stay at home and have babies. That is why I am pro SN!
Oh, and my pink siddur is from Israel, I got it in a leather store on Geula that sells diff color leather siddurim. I like pink as I’ve told you!
anonym00kie // Jun 13th 2007 at 9:20 p06
“i have a question.. for those of you who agree with s.n., how do you hold yourself back when you read posts like these, when it sounds like no one else is keeping it?”-I started posting cuz I wanted to answer this question. If you read what I wrote, then you will understand how I and MANY other pple do it!!
One last thing, I agree with LR! That is how I feel.
Ari
-06002007-06-14T17:58:18-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 17:58:18 -0600 5, 206
I get where MW is coming from, and I know her type. You are more or less a SCT admit it. But you want to be good and frum and wait till you are married. You are prob younger then 25 and dont have experience of being single for a while. You are part of the fresh batch, which I like btw! Just know that there is a world out there that is bigger then it seems. Hatzlacha in finding your zivug and Hashem should bentch you that you wont be single for too long and shouldnt have to break your SN lifestyle because of it! Shalom!
AJ
-06002007-06-14T19:01:36-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:01:36 -0600 5, 206
I’d like to respond to this thread as I’m a 39 widower and have been one for almost nine years now. Add to the mix that I’m a kohen and you’ve go a great shidduch cocktail. At least, I don’t have kids to make my dating possiblities almost nonexistant. I say this so no one can say I’m young or inexperienced. Some could say I’m a hard core BT, although the rabbeim at the yeshiva I studied at would say otherwise.
I’m SN except for work (shaking hands and being a personal trainer, instructing proper lifting technique) and hugging non-immediate family members and I think there is a big difference in judgement between holding hands and kissing (first base) and going to third base or possible all the way to home plate. While against halacha, I’m not sure that most poeple are shomer beyond engagement. The contention from my standpoint is at which base a couple stops at and with how many people a person is willing to explorer different bases, as egagements do from time to time fall apart. How does one view a person who with different dating partners goes to first, second or third plate? As they quite possibly treat sexuality frivolously are they someone that others are prone to want to marry? How does someone who goes to first and beyond with different liasons in the past how does that affect their marriage if both or only one fooled around in the past? These are complicated which cannot be answered easily. As I’m a person who stives to take responsibility for both current impact and future rammifications of my actions, I strive to SN all the time outside of beforemention conditions. Does this mean that I won’t go to first base once engaged, not nessicarily. What it does mean that if it does go to first, I’ll work hard that no one tries to steal second.
MW
-06002007-06-14T19:17:25-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:17:25 -0600 5, 206
First of all rebelwithacause, to answer to some of your comments:
1-I know a rebbitzin is not a rabbi, I wrote rebbetzin cuz I am a girl.
2-The experience I was reffering to has nothing to do with that. I know that is not called experience. I am not a naive idiot! I wont write what happened to me but I garentee if I did you would call that experience, and I would have the right to say what I say.
3-“why is such a nice frum aidel girl in places where men are constantly hitting on her? “-If the places you are reffering to is outside, like walking on the street, going out to eat, shopping, going to work and having a life…then yeah, I do go to all those places. Men hit on me all the time and I dont do anything to cause it. That is men and life and I choose to ignore them!
4-I am not naive or immature and I DO have a clue about life, I just chose to have a better one! -yeah, now I am being serious for the first time on this blog!!
5-My pink siddur is from Israel from a leather store on Geulah. They sell diff color leather siddurim. I got pink cuz I like it.
Oh, and thanks nicejewishguy, I know it is a safeguard and I think that is the best way FOR ME to live. Dont care what others do, I just commented on this whole thing because I wanted to show that they left out one catagory which is my type and I wanted to answer anonymookie’s question on how we SN’s do it. If you read my comments you will see that is what my intentions were.
And btw, I agree with LR, that is the way I feel.
ed
-06002007-06-14T20:06:31-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:06:31 -0600 5, 206
MW,
Don’t get scared off by all the bums out here. You’re doing a great job. Keep it up!
Steg (dos iz nit der šteg)
-06002007-06-14T20:11:40-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:11:40 -0600 5, 206
congratulations on the mad popular post!
ps: derekh hhiba!
MW
-06002007-06-14T20:57:44-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:57:44 -0600 5, 206
Thanks ed!
mazeartist
-06002007-06-14T21:03:30-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:03:30 -0600 5, 206
I’m frum in public, but more relaxed at home. I am engaged, which should be considered a relaxation of shomer standards.
yumma
-06002007-06-14T21:24:18-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 21:24:18 -0600 5, 206
NM:
No one is trying to undermine your commitment to Torah Judaism, though I wonder how Ed got wind of this discussion.
Attacking your own experience is not an issue; I think that is fairly obvious.
Just think to yourself what your commitment to SN is all about. Remember, even Ed has a good point every now and then and as ortho Jews, his would seem to be a good point.
All we can ask is of you–all of is really–is to examine why you actually feel the way you do, away from the malignant influences of any sort of troll on these orthodox blogs
So NM, are you prepared to carry on with your SN for as long as it takes? seriously?
(I hope not, at least not without an intellectual understanding as to the big questions)
MW
-06002007-06-14T22:09:48-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:09:48 -0600 5, 206
I feel that being an SN is the ratzon of Hashem, and if I do his ratzon and not break my commitment then I know he will help me get through my single years and will make it easier for me. That is how it is with all mitzvos. You try to do the right thing and G-d will help you succeed. These laws and safeguards are here to help us. The gedolim know how life is and they want to make it as easy as possible to get through it in the right way. Hashem is the source of all good and pleasure and if you follow his ways you can have the ultimate good and pleasure this world has to offer. Besides for the Torah reason why I am an SN, there are also personal reasons. I feel on a human bases that it is the best way to go. Your whole life is not revolving around sex and the opposite sex. You get to actually live and breathe without being pressured. I could go on forever about my personal reasons but I dont have the pateince to write it. And to answer your question, I am ready and prepared to go as long as it takes to be an SN, because that is the way I grew up and that is the life I chose and know it is the best for me. It is hard for me because I really want to get married already, but I know I am doing the ratzon Hashem and he will help me through my single years. I am not afraid because I have faith in him. Plus, if many, many, many pple kept it and lived, so can I!!
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-14T22:14:47-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:14:47 -0600 5, 206
I agree with you mostly, though I think that most peoples lives do completely revolve around the opposite sex. Clothing, cute cell phones, make up, cars, home furnishings, and a bunch of other luxurious items that are meant to attract the opposite sex whether to realize it consciously or not. Life def does revolve around sex, even in Judaism- look at the first mitzvah in the torah- to have children. There you go sex.
My life revolves around hugging trees and riding my 3 bikes- but I am a weird eccentric tree hugger.
ed
-06002007-06-14T22:51:55-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:51:55 -0600 5, 206
>though I wonder how Ed got wind of this discussion.
I stop by every now and then to appreciate and thank God that I’m a frummie.
MW
-06002007-06-14T22:52:56-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:52:56 -0600 5, 206
I also agree that life revolves around the opposite sex. Pple want money in order to have nice things, in order to impress pple in, order to get a little somethin somethin. But I still think that it is a better way of life knowing that you cant have that until you are married, so it puts a person at ease for a while. And once you are married you are at ease for life, cept you have to deal with your spouse and those issues, and that I am not getting into.
And dude, hope you find a girl that likes to hug trees just as much as you do! Good luck with that! LOL!!
MW
-06002007-06-14T22:53:43-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:53:43 -0600 5, 206
Amen to that Ed!!! LOL!
Dofan Akuma
-06002007-06-14T23:22:16-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:22:16 -0600 5, 206
hi, i’m back to stick up for the yeshivish.
(i hate to be serious on this site, but these comments have gotten to the point of virtual hair-pulling as hesh would have it.)
i can’t tell you what happens in ‘frum’ offices, but i can vouch for the genuine guys who stay in yeshiva. the guys i knew anyway were not focused on sex 24/7, hitting on random (or unrandom) girls, etc. they just avoided the situation.
also, small halacha point- all the stories in tanach (yaakov kissing rachel; yehuda and tamar; dovid and bas-sheva; etc.) don’t get past the issur d’oraisa of nidda which is going to be a problem for anyone not sending his t’fillin date to the mikva.
small halacha point #2- for the girls out there i don’t want to scare you (actually, i guess i don’t care) but if you have premarital relations you may be assur to marry a kohen ( i’m not paskening, but it is a real issue you would want to ask a rabbi.) you also may have to have a special ksuba written which could be embarrassing.
last point, my sincere best wishes (and secret jealousy) to all the people who must be a lot more attractive than me because they are faced with these tests / opportunities of hot girls hitting on them
MW
-06002007-06-14T23:33:08-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:33:08 -0600 5, 206
Thank you soooo much DA for showing some halacha and realness to this topic. We need more of your input and sources!!! And everything you said is true btw. Its awesome!!
ari kinsberg
-06002007-06-15T00:39:25-06:00302007b-06:00Fri, 15 Jun 2007 00:39:25 -0600 5, 206
HESH:
is a post on yihud next? (from irrelenvance to not riding in a car together with a girl even during the day in a crowded neighbotrhood.)
check this out: http://agmk.blogspot.com/2007/05/imam-and-yihud.html#links
you left out one category: ignorant about SN. i don’t know if such a category even exists today, but back in the day when i was in (mo) school, i don’t think the concept (i’m not referring to the actual practice) was even so popular. i think the first time i actually heard the term SN was when i was in yeshivah after high school. i’m not saying everyone fooled around, but those who did not on principle didn’t proclaim SN like a badge of honor
“For all of those who dont beleive that Brooklyn is the center of the earth”
apikorsim
“Oh and my roommate says that Shomer negia is mentioned in the Rambam”
i think he says it that it is de-oraytah only if it is derekh hibbah
“I thought we ashkenazim go according to the Shulchan Aruch”
ashkenazim follow the rama
sephardim follow the shulchan aruch
only yemenites follow the rambam
DAVID KILIMNICK
“Rabbis aren’t into my type- they don’t like goatees.”
i don’t know if you are kidding, but a girl’s mom once called me up to find out about a friend of mine and one of the quetions she aksed was if it is true my friend has a gotee. i never “believed” in the shidduch business, but the ridiculous questions she asked completely ruined it for me
Shuli
-06002007-06-15T06:21:35-06:00302007b-06:00Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:21:35 -0600 5, 206
BS”D
you forgot SWE (Shomer with exceptions)
Ahuva
-06002007-06-15T07:58:37-06:00302007b-06:00Fri, 15 Jun 2007 07:58:37 -0600 5, 206
Sorry for yet another serious comment…
But SN is erotic. It’s sexy. SN shidduch dating is as intense and exciting as anything I knew in my pre-religious days. Not touching doesn’t demean women. And, “inappropriate” thoughts aside, it’s reassuring to know that my future husband will have to learn to relate to me with words, not just with touch. He won’t be able to resolve every argument with a rush of endorphins.
There are things that demean women:
“there is no other reason to talk girls unless you are going to marry them”
“Instead, men and women are taught to view women only through the prism of sexuality”
These are real issues, but they’re not necessarily related to SN. SN can be a really cool thing.
anonym00kie
-06002007-06-15T11:15:48-06:00302007b-06:00Fri, 15 Jun 2007 11:15:48 -0600 5, 206
“there is no other reason to talk girls unless you are going to marry them”
doesnt mean you shouldnt talk to your wife.. i think it means the harm of just talking to girls will outdo the good, so theres no reason to put youreself in that situation unless youre looking to get married
MW
-06002007-06-15T12:22:07-06:00302007b-06:00Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:22:07 -0600 5, 206
“i think he says it that it is de-oraytah only if it is derekh hibbah”
-Exactly! But that is reffering to (touching) shaking the hand of your aunt’s seconed cousin 4 times removed at a wedding. Then you are not over on a de-oraysa.-But try to avoid that anyway. But if it is derech chibah like going on a tefillin date, then it is assur de-oraysa.
“there is no other reason to talk girls unless you are going to marry them”
-I dont think there is anything wrong with talking to the opposit sex, but it all depends on your intentions. If you are at work or at a wedding or any other such type of scenerio then it is ok to interact, but out of courtesy and being a mentch. Dont go run and hide everytime there is a girl in the room (waaaay too extreme I know-but they do exist!) There are boundries and extremists out there to prevent the chibah from forming.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-15T17:24:17-06:00302007b-06:00Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:24:17 -0600 5, 206
Ahuva what you said is exactly how I feel about negia, I felt that during my engagement it forced me and my kallah to communicate our feelings with words instead of the classic drown them out with touching.
I also feel that if Hashem can give us something as amazing as love we might as well do the most we can to fullfill his wishes with regards to the proper way top carry out that love.
I am planning on doing a few follow up posts to this one- including a serious post- since I think it calls for it.
MW
-06002007-06-15T17:35:37-06:00302007b-06:00Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:35:37 -0600 5, 206
Thank you Hesh, I wanted to know exactly how you felt on the matter, and now I think I got it. (what do you keep btw?) Oh, and sorry for making your post so serious. I wasnt when I commented but I guess everyone else thought I was.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-15T18:01:28-06:00302007b-06:00Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:01:28 -0600 5, 206
I would like to think I keep 100% negia beside for shaking hands for business purposes and situations in whoch the person will be offended, embarrassed or turn hatefull towards orthodoxy.
For instance my best friends mom kisses me on the cheek when I see once a year or so, I hug and kiss my aunts and I cannot say how much control over myself I would be able to have if I put myself into a situation such as some hot girl hitting on me and reaching out to tpuch me- I am only human- though I personally love the whole concept of negia and cherishing the touch when you actually get or give it.
SN keeps touching personal- unlike many people who view simple hugs and holding hands as “nothing” I view these events as extremely special and reserved for someone that I truly care about.
I will tell you that during my engagement I was shomer for 7 weeks- once we got engaged however things went out the window very quickly- as most people we agreed to no kissing and of course when you get it you only want more- thank God we did not have sex- because we did break up and she was the type of girl who had one of those upbringings of guilt.
Until I entered high school I grew up in an environment that assumed you would be making out at birthday parties at age 12. You know 7 minutes in heaven- though my first kiss was a bit late at age 14- which I was ashamed of- because everyone else was already at 2nd and third base.
I will be writing more about this issue in the future- I think that regret is an interesting- you see every yom kippor I would ask my Rebbe why I did not regret any of the stuff I did with girls- and further more I felt hypocritical clopping my al chets- because I knew I would do the same things again.
My Rebbe told me that you are asking God to put you on the level where you could actually feel sorry for the things you did.
MW
-06002007-06-16T20:15:47-06:00302007b-06:00Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:15:47 -0600 5, 206
Thanks for being honest. And I agree with what you keep too, though with the whole “hot chick” thing, you shouldnt underestimate yourself. A hot guy that I liked once touched me and I pulled away really quickly (once I realized he was touching me) without even thinking. Of course I didnt make it obvious as to not insult him or make him feel bad. To tell you the truth, I dont even know if he realized what he was doing. But then again, you never know!
Rina
-06002007-06-16T22:52:24-06:00302007b-06:00Sat, 16 Jun 2007 22:52:24 -0600 5, 206
Shomer N’Foolin Around.
Weird name for it… but yeah. I really don’t see why touching people is an issue among some people, but I wouldn’t go too far.
Modern Orthodox Liberal representin’.
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-17T00:19:15-06:00302007b-06:00Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:19:15 -0600 5, 206
Well touching is all to do with hilchos needa and technically all single girls, unless they went to a mikvah are considered in a state of needa
Ahuva
-06002007-06-18T10:22:44-06:00302007b-06:00Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:22:44 -0600 5, 206
It goes beyond nida, though, doesn’t it? I mean… if a friend’s wife were to come up to you and say that she was tahor, you still couldn’t give her a hug… or could you? 🙂
frumbutwithit
-06002007-06-18T10:37:03-06:00302007b-06:00Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:37:03 -0600 5, 206
Then your getting to issues of aishes ish and gilay aryos a whole dif league which brings the punishment of death.
Yochanan
-06002007-06-21T01:27:35-06:00302007b-06:00Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:27:35 -0600 5, 206
How about an extended-family-OK category:
Those who keep shomer negiah, but are lenient with people they share a great-grandparent with.
moshe
-06002007-06-26T01:22:57-06:00302007b-06:00Tue, 26 Jun 2007 01:22:57 -0600 5, 206
yawn i say when ur looking at a girl ur hangin out with and u feel like touching her just eat a 3/4 lb hamburger and u wont be touchin nothin but a toilet seat
i guess in an age of disposable pop music, trashy hollywood celebs, teen pregnancy and high divorce rates, shomer could go a long way
but i still disagree with those mitzva girls who wear a bug badge that says “im shomer! boys back off!”
From Jekishland
-06002007-08-02T14:42:08-06:00312007b-06:00Thu, 02 Aug 2007 14:42:08 -0600 5, 206
Filthy americans…
sara
-06002007-10-31T17:27:41-06:00312007b-06:00Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:27:41 -0600 5, 206
Dude! i love the catagories, but i think some people fall into a few; such as a person could be shomer by default, until they turn into shomer until fed up and then b/c they feel so guilty if they do it sober they turn into shomer until drunk
10977
-06002007-11-11T13:49:51-06:00302007b-06:00Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:49:51 -0600 5, 206
I almost cried-I feel depressed, oh wait, this is just your low experience. I’m glad to be surrounded with a world of shomer negia (read frum Jews) men and women. Ooh, we also keep Shabbos-WOW!
Shomer Dilemma
-06002007-11-11T22:35:07-06:00302007b-06:00Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:35:07 -0600 5, 206
It is extremely difficult to hold yourself back from touching the one you love. I am 16 and me and my boyfriend are frum and we tried being shomer negia, but it didn’t work out too great… we haven’t kissed, but we’ve done a good amount of groping and rolling around in bed with each other.
Recently, we’ve been trying to find out ways to help stop ourselves from touching. And we are really working on it. It will be at least like 3 years until we can get married and i know it’s a while away, but we really love each other and want to get married.
So we are going to really work together and stop touching. We decided on staying one foot away from each other and not speaking about sexual stuff, which would entice us to touch.
Also, we realized waiting is so much more special and is so worth it in the end.
I concluded that being sexually involved is something that should happened only when you are married. it is the only appropriate time for physical contact.
So, even though we have our ups and downs- we will ultimately prevail with Hashem’s help and getting married in the years to come. =)
Frum Hiker
-06002007-11-12T11:45:56-06:00302007b-06:00Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:45:56 -0600 5, 206
All of these comments will be posted on my current site- http://frumsatire.net
Please refer to that site in the future.
michael
-06002008-03-27T23:58:39-06:00312008b-06:00Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:58:39 -0600 5, 206
reform “sure I’m shomer neghia.” “that means no pork, right?”
conservative “shomer neghia?” “let me ask my rabbi”
reconstructionist “we don’t need shomer anything cause G-d is my buddy”
chabad “the Rebbe is the shomer of my neghia”
breslov “na nach nachma nachman me uman”
messianic “I don’t know what that is, but I am sure Jesus was” “and he died for your sins, in case you didn’t know”
modern orthodox “my yeshiva taught me how to be shomer neghia but actually I hate it”
moshe rabeynu
-06002009-03-21T16:11:31-06:00312009b-06:00Sat, 21 Mar 2009 16:11:31 -0600 5, 206
STUDENTS MUST BE INCULCATED AS TO THE BENEFITS OF MASTURBATION. MODERN LIFESTYLES AFFORD INDIVIDUALS THE PRIVACY AND HYGIENIC FACILITIES NECESSARY TO MASTURBATE IN A PRIVATE, DIGNIFIED AND SANITARY MANNER. ONE CAN WELL UNDERSTAND THE IRE THAT WAS AROUSED BY MASTURBATING INDIVIDUALS FOUR THOUSAND YEARS AGO WHEN AN ENTIRE LARGE FAMILY LIVED TOGETHER IN A TENT IN AN ARID LOCATION. NOBODY WANTED TO HAVE A WAD OF FLYING GISSUM HIT THEM IN THE EYE OR LAND IN THEIR HUMUUS. WATER WAS SCARCE AND ONE HAD TO WALK TO THE WELL TO GET IT, IF IT WAS AVAILABLE. UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES IT WAS A CHOICE OF WATER FOR DRINKING OR WATER FOR WASHING EJACULATE OFF OF ONE’S HANDS. THIS IS WHY THE EARLY SAGES WERE SO VOCIFEROUS IN THEIR CONDEMNATION OF MASTURBATION. WE JEWISH PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A HORNY BUNCH AND, IF THERE WEREN’T THESE SEVERE STRICTURES AGAINST MASTURBATION AT THAT TIME, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN ERRANT CUMSTAINS ALL OVER THE PLACE AND THE SMELL OF FRESHLY RELEASED GISSUM WOULD HAVE WAFTED FAR AND WIDE. TIMES HAVE CHANGED.. IF PARENTS TODAY STRESS THE BENEFITS OF MASTURBATION TO THEIR CHILDREN, THEY WILL HELP LESSEN THE OCCURRENCE OF STDs, AND UNPLANNED PREGNANCIES. IF NECESSARY, PARENTS SHOULD SET AN EXAMPLE FOR THEIR CHILDREN ON THE PROPER METHODOLOGY FOR THIS ACTIVITY AND FOLLOW UP AND MAKE SURE THAT THEIR CHILDREN ARE MASTURBATING REGULARLY AT AN OPTIMUM FREQUENCY. KEEPING A MASTURBATION DIARY COULD BE A VERY USEFUL TOOL IN MAINTAINING THE PROPER SCHEDULE. EVERY PARENT SHOULD ASK HIS CHILDREN, “DID YOU DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND MASTURBATE TODAY?”